Urdu: Gender treatment of Arabic broken plurals ...

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by UrduMedium, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    The following appeared as a tangent in the maanand/maanind thread, but sort of got lost later ...

    Later QP Saahib commented:

    Aur is ke ba3d ye baat maanand/maanind ke bahao meN beh ga'ii :) ... therefore reviving for further discussion.
     
  2. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I believe I had read this kind of prescription somewhere sometime, but it is just a dull reminiscence, so I won't be able to tell where. Keeping it in mind, I am also not sure if it was exactly this kind of language advice.

    If the example of my usage can prove to be of any service, all I can say that I never ever have followed this kind of thinking and in my speech and writing the nouns have always retained their assigned gender in whichever plural form they might occur. Moreover, I can't recall an instance when I'd have come across it on paper or in speech.

    Slightly different thing might be the fact that some words had been borrowed in different forms and have continued with the gender which was assigned to them originally. Please regard it as a highly theoretical mere speculation which is not based on a single example.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012
  3. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    One example I can think of, that is in common use, is haqeeqat and its plural haqaa'iq. Haqeeqat hotii hai, aur haqaa'iq hote haiN.

    Looking for some written example to share ...

    marrish saahib, thanks for sharing your personal usage. I was also unaware of this until I encountered the above mentioned writer.
     
  4. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You're welcome, mbasit SaaHib. I will appreciate that the source of this advice or usage can be given and the usage discussed by all colleagues. Since I saw that post, I can't sleep well!

    By the way, I am very well aware that Haqaa'iq is popularily treated as a masculine plural noun but our Bible says that

    A
    حقائق ḥaqāʼiq, s.f. pl. (of ḥaqīqat), Truths, realities, &c.

    I have always thought that the masculinisation of Haqaa'iq is a common mistake caused by the lack of knowledge amongst the common user of the language that it is the plural of Haqiiqah. I didn't know that the rule you are talking about is here at work.
     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    nazar aate nahiiN be-pardah Haqaa'iq un ko
    aaNkh jin kii hu'ii maHkuumii-o-taqliid se kor

    Iqbal
     
  6. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    The question whether the ''broken'' Arabic-style plurals in Urdu ought to supposedly be invariably masculine is not solved by this; if this poet used it like this means it is not wrong in this case. One would of course wish to emulgate the pattern of the great sages!
     
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    And who would be a greater "sage" than "Hakiim-ul-ummat", "shaa3ir-i-mashriq" himself? If I am not mistaken, whenever Iqbal was criticised for using an idiom or construction deemed to be incorrect, he would quote from the works of past masters to give credence to his usage. I shall try to search from the works of "great sages".
     
  8. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Thought of one more example. mabaHis is the plural of baHs (debate). baHs (although we say beHs) being feminine gender and mabaHis masculine. Found one example of a book title from Iqbal Academy, Lahore. It is called, "Iqbaal: channd nae mabaHis". See http://www.urducl.com/Urdu-Books/969-416-203-008/p0001.php.

    I agree that these examples do not prove the rule articulated in post #1 above, but they do show that there's no rule either, to automatically carry the feminine gender of a noun to its Arabic broken plural form (in Urdu).

    Hoping QP saahib's research will deliver the smoking gun on this, if one exists :). I would also love to hear from Faylasoof saahib on this. Especially, given a quote about his usage 'saste ashyaa' (see post #1).
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Actually "mabaaHis" is the plural of "mabHas", which happens to be masculine in the singular.
     
  10. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Really? Could it be plural of both? I thought this was on the pattern of shaix and mashaa'ix.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    "3arabii alfaaz kii jam3 jab 3arabii qavaa'id kii ruu se aatii hai to us kii tazkiir-o-taaniis meN sirf yih yaad rakhnaa chaahiye kih jo Haalat vaahid kii hai vahii jam3 kii ho gii; masal-an shai, majlis, masjid mu'annas haiN to un kii jam3 asyaa', majaalis aur masaajid bhii mu'annas ho gii. chand alfaaz albattah mustasnaa haiN. masal-an agarchih ma3rifat, Haqiiqat, quvvat, shafqat mu'annas haiN magar in kii jam3 ma3aarif, Haqaa'iq, quvaa aur ashfaaq muzakkar musta3mal haiN. ba3z muta'axxiriin-i-ahl-i-lakhnau kaa yih qaul hai kih har lafz kii 3arabii jam3 muzakkar hii aatii hai. yih qaa3idah to bahut achchhaa hai magar is kaa kyaa 3ilaaj kih ahl-i-zabaaN aisaa nahiiN bolte. ahl-i-dihlii ba-juz ba3z mustasnayaat ke hameshah mu'annas kii jam3 mu'annas aur muzakkar kii jam3 muzakkar hii isti3aal karte haiN...". Maulavii Abdul Haq

    Baba-i-Urdu goes onto say that those who state that every Arabic broken plural should be masculine are in error.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2012
  12. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    This thread may also be relevant: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2364880
    Excellent research Qureshpor sb. Is jam3 in the end a typo? Did you mean mu'annas hoN gii?
     
  13. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    After checking, it seems the plural of baHs is abHaas, and the plural of mabHas is mabaaHis. mashaayix as the plural of shaix seems to be an exceptional case, and it may originally be a plural-of-plural via mashyixah. I don't know too much about this though, as I just looked it up, so I might be wrong.
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Also buHuus
     
  15. Abu Talha Senior Member

    Urdu
    True. بحوث may actually be more common I think.
     
  16. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    Indeed excellent research, QP saahib. Thank you! So it seems a Lucknow/Delhi (East and West UP) variation. It also explains Mr. Ghamidi's take on this. He is a student of the renowned scholar Amin Ahsan Islahi, originally of Azamgarh (much closer to Lucknow, than Delhi!).

    Also thanks for resolving the baHs/mabaHis mystery.
     
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Please accept these words of thankfulness for clarifying this issue! The following words are hilarious (!): yih qaa3idah to bahut achchhaa hai magar is kaa kyaa 3ilaaj kih ahl-i-zabaaN aisaa nahiiN bolte.

    It must have required a lot of effort to transliterate the whole paragraph, so I may help a bit pointing out minor spelling mistakes.
     
  18. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    He was the one whom I refered to as ''great sage''. I don't think there is any need to search for greater ones :).
     
  19. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, very "nafiis" indeed! I can see at least one typo (isti3maal) where I've missed the "m". Please do point out the others and I shall correct them.
     
  20. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I didn't notice the lack of ''m''! The other typos are marked in red in the quotation of your original answer.
     

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