Urdu: Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa...naa-insaafii ho gii/ho gaa?

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Jul 12, 2013.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Recently, in another forum a debate took place whether the following sentence should be..

    kisii ke ek shi3r ko Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-insaafii ho gii

    or

    kisii ke ek shi3r ko Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-insaafii ho gaa?

    What are the views of friends in this forum? Which sentence would you give preference to and why?

    Edit: The title should also state "kahnaa" and not "likhnaa".
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  2. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    QP SaaHib, I would prefer saying it this way (and I hope I understand the meaning of the sentence correctly).
    It is an essential question from the grammar point of view and my presumption is that this thread will take us all to a point where this matter will be clarified once and for all. I am of course open to the further proceedings and this preference of mine which I am contributing without any 'second thought' is:

    kisii ek shi3r ko (I have removed ''ke'') HaaSil-e-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-inSaafii ho gii.
    *Let's have a go and translate this sentence:

    kahnaa = to say, to call something something
    kisii ek shi3r ko = a particular couplet/some particular couplet (oblique)
    HaaSil-e-Ghazal = the summary/essence of a Ghazal
    naa-inSaafii ho gaa/gii = will be injustice
    baaqii ash3aar ke saath = with the rest of couplets

    To begin with, is my understanding of the sentence right?
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2013
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Although the "ke" that you have removed does make a difference to the meaning of the sentence, your understanding of the sentence is quite correct. All I am asking you and other friends is whether you would go for "ho gii" or "ho gaa".
     
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, naa-inSaafii we always treat as feminine whatever the gender of the person / thing being referred to.
    I illustrate it as follows:

    yeh kaihnaa* / likhnaa us mard (masc.) ke saath naa-inSaafii ho gii
    yeh kaihnaa* / likhnaa us 3aurat (fem.) ke saath naa-inSaafii ho gii

    yeh Harkat (fem.) karnaa naa-inSaafii ho gii
    yeh kaam (masc.) karnaa naa-inSaafii ho gii

    i.e. naa-inSaafii hameshah hotii hai never hotaa hai!


    * kahnaa
     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Faylasoof SaaHib, I must admit that as a matter of instinct, I too would have gone for your choice. However, the gentleman in question(Raj Kumar "Qais"*) in the poetry group I alluded to, was basing his logic on the "Ghazal kahnaa" being masculine and consequently "ho gaa". Here is the relevant thread...post 14 on wards. He had posted one of his Ghazals and members have been commenting and he has been reacting to their comments.

    https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.language.urdu.poetry/IHB2vaaQ9ls

    * Raj Kumar "Qais" is a retired physicist and a well known Urdu poet, settled in the US.
     
  6. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib I shall have a look at "Qais"SaaHib's "logic" later. Suffice it to say, as I said above, that naa-inSaafii hameshah hotii hai never hotaa hai !

    You of course can say: yeh naa-inSaafii ka kaam ho gaa, where the masculine declension of honaa (i.e. ho gaa) refers to kaam (masc.) and not, in this case naa-inSaafii (fem.). But it would always be:

    yeh kaam naa-inSaafii ho gii
    yeh kaam naa-inSaafii kaa ho gaa

    yeh kaihnaa naa-inSaafii ho gii
    yeh kaihnaa naa-inSaafi kaa kaam ho gaa
     
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Would Urdu speaking friends agree that the following sentence is grammatically equivalent to the one I have posed in my opening post ( the "ho gaa" version")?

    ہاں، ہندو اگر یہ کوشش کریں کہ بھاکا میں جتنے فارسی اسماء مل گئے ہیں اُن کو اِس زبان سے نکال ڈالیں تو اِن کو نئی زبان بنانا پڑے گا۔

    Another similar example..

    اُن لوگوں کا شاعر ہونا توکجا اُنھیں اچھی طرح بات کرنا بھی نہیں آتا۔
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2013
  8. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Since there haven't been any takings up to now, let me say that the first sentence is not of the type like that in the OP - as far as my understanding goes but you know I'm not that big grammarian! - and for me it is equivalent to another type of sentences which has nothing to do with the topic at hand so I will leave it at this point so that the train of thought of other friends who are going to come with their opinions is not going to be influenced in a wrong way.

    The second example has some similarities with the subject sentence.

    A simplest example would be yuuN karnaa be wuquuf ho gaa ---> yuuN karnaa be wuquufii ho gii.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2013
  9. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, the argument here is the same as I presented above. Both زبان zabaan and بات baat are feminine, hence:

    ہاں، ہندو اگر یہ کوشش کریں کہ بھاکا میں جتنے فارسی اسماء مل گئے ہیں اُن کو اِس زبان سے نکال ڈالیں تو اِن کو نئی زبان بنانا پڑے گی۔

    and,


    اُن لوگوں کا شاعر ہونا توکجا اُنھیں اچھی طرح بات کرنا بھی نہیں آتی۔
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you, Faylasoof SaaHib. Both these sentences (in the form I have quoted) are from the pen of a famous Lakhnavii gentleman, namely 3allaamah Sayyid Ali Haidar "Nazm" Tabatabaa'ii. I have copied them from "maqaalaat-i-Tabatabaa'ii". Once again, to me it makes sense to have them as you have written. It was my seeing "paRe gaa" and "nahiiN aataa" that caught my attention!
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  11. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Now that the discussion has moved on I can only say that both sentences are perfectly fine with me and there is nothing that would need correction or even attention. They are analogous to the sentence in this thread:
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2662692 (my posts), but they are not on the pattern of the sentence ''...ko kahnaa naa-insaafii ho gii''.
     
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I am not sure if we reached an agreement if your sentence (qasam lenaa ho gaa) mapped onto Na'im's third example.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2013
  13. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Indeed, I think we have left the issue without making conclusions. I shall make a link there to the sentences which you have quoted from Nazm Tabatabai.
     
  14. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    What I can see we have an agreement that the sentence kisii (ke) ek shi3r ko Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-insaafii ho gii is the only correct.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I have managed to find a reference from Qavaa3id-i-Urdu (Maulavii Abdul Haq 1914)

    af3aal-i-naaqis meN jab mubtidaa [subject] aur xabar [predicate] donoN ism (noun) hoN to fi3l mubtidaa ke mutaabiq honaa chaahiye agarchih ba3z asaatizah ne is ke xilaaf bhii kiyaa hai lekin vuh qaabil-i-taqliid nahiiN.

    So, looking at the original sentence..

    kisii ke ek shi3r ko Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-insaafii ho gii/gaa.

    Here the "fi3l naaqis" is "honaa", subject is the masculine noun "Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa", the predicate is the feminine noun "naa-insaafii". Applying the rule above, the subject is masculine, therefore the auxiliary verb ought to be masculine, irrespective of the feminine noun in the predicate.

    kisii ke ek shi3r ko Haasil-i-Ghazal kahnaa baaqii ash3aar ke saath naa-insaafii ho gaa.
     
  16. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you very much for this eye-opener and your extensive search. I am perplexed as to why I consider ''ho gii'' version as correct, for my defence there are two points, Baba-e-Urdu says there are/were some masters/teachers who advocate(d) ho gaa however he himself does not recommend it and secondly, I'm not so quick to accept ''kahnaa'' as ism (noun).
     
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ "Grammatically, all Urdu infinitives are also marked masculine nouns except they neither occur in the plural nor the vocative..." (Section 86 C.M. Naim)

    Ahmad kaa jaanaa = Ahmad's departure

    marrish SaaHib kaa aanaa = marrish Saaib's arrival
     

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