Urdu / Hindi: Aap + verb stem + e(n)

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by lcfatima, Mar 27, 2008.

  1. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    In Pakistani Urdu with speakers who are not influenced by Punjabi*, one usually hears the polite imperative construction of Aap plus verb stem plus e(n)

    As in "aap please jawaab de(n)" or "aap idher baith jaye(n)

    instead of dijieye or jaiye

    I am curious to know if this is done regularly in Hindi dialects as well.

    *Under Punjabi influence, I generally hear aap + ho imperative constructions in place of this e(n) one, I heard this a lot in India as well.
     
  2. francois_auffret Senior Member

    Lahore, Pakistan
    France, French
    This is a relevant remark... I also noticed that in Pakistan people would use this Karein forms (subjunctive) rather than - kijiye....

    And yes, Punjabi speakers would use karo... (replacing tusi by aap!!)...

    I think these -ein forms are a mark of politeness characteristic of the Urdu rules of aadaab, and not so developped in Hindi...
     
  3. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I agree. Snell lists them as correct but they still seem to be preferential in Urdu. Perhaps this is a stylistic difference between Urdu and Hindi.

    Panjabi doesn't have this polite subjunctive form. Or maybe it does, but just happens to be indistinguishable from the command.

    Aap yeh kare.n --tusii.n eh karo
    Aap yeh kijiie -- tusii.n eh karo
     
  4. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Illuminatus, could you speak to <kare.n> versus <kijiie> in Hindi?
     
  5. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    I also wanted to know if as children during Urdu class, native Urdu speakers are taught kijiye or kare(n) in Pakistan.
     
  6. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    The <kijiye> form is of course the standard taught form, but the other one doesn't sound unnatural to me and I've heard it often.

    Technically, it is subjunctive. Main chahta hoon ki aap yeh karein/I want that you do it/Je veux que vous le faissiez.

    But I guess that it is used as a more respectful form.
     
  7. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    Illuminatus: I didn't realize that this form was used by Hindi speakers as well. It is something I always associated with Urdu.

    So is BaiThe(n) more polite than BaiThiega?

    I always feared using this subjective as imperitave when out and about shopping in Dubai where most of the shop keepers are Hindi rather than Urdu speakers and I didn't want them to think I was saying "de" or "le" instead of "de(N)" or "le(N)," so I usuailly stick to "do" or "lo" or sometimes dijiye if it is a more formal context with Hindi speakers.

    I would say that outside of Punjab, with native Urdu speakers, this subjective as imperative is the tense of choice.
     
  8. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    It is subjunctive, not subjective.

    I won't say Hindi speakers often use it. But, I have heard it often enough for it to not sound unnatural.

    I never use this form and nobody I know uses it frequently. But, I guess people don't choose to use this over the standard form. It just comes naturally to them, just as the standard one comes naturally to me.

    Speakers of English often find the nasalization at the end hard to pronounce, so your fear is justified!
     
  9. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    Oh, oops, how embarrassing. I am typing on my way out the door, and didn't even notice that I wrote that...

    My accent is pretty good for a pardesi, but I do forget to nasalize sometimes in daily speech. Never with that subjunctive, though.
     
  10. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    I guess your mother tongue is English from both sides of the family?
     
  11. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    @Icf:
    " So is BaiThe(n) more polite than BaiThiega?"
    and
    " I would say that outside of Punjab, with native Urdu speakers, this subjective as imperative is the tense of choice."

    The -ain ending is a notch less formal/respectful, contrary to what you thought, and hence the
    conjugation of choice for most situations for many people. I think we discussed this earlier. Look it up. I think Faylasoof gave a detailed explanation that you'd find useful.

    @Illum,
    "Je veux que vous le faissiez"
    fassiez not faissiez biraadar.

    Waisay, I don't think that maiN yeh chaahooN ga keh aap yeh na keejiyay is wrong.
     
  12. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I feel like I hear the subjunctive version much more than command version from Urdu speakers.

    One time my mother did reprimand me because she thought I said <de> and said it should be <do>! Panjabi influence, of course.
     
  13. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    BP: Do you know if in Pakistan Urdu speaking children are taught the "kare(N) as a choice of imperative in school?

    Illuminatus: Yes both of my parents are foreigners.
     
  14. Illuminatus Senior Member

    Mumbai, India
    India, Hindi, English, Marathi
    @Illum,
    "Je veux que vous le faissiez"
    fassiez not faissiez biraadar.

    Waisay, I don't think that maiN yeh chaahooN ga keh aap yeh na keejiyay is wrong.


    Typo, sorry.

    I won't venture to say it is grammatically incorrect because I am not sure of that, but I find it unnatural.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    "aap aNgrezii paRhte haiN..aap geNd-ballaa khelte haiN.

    aise jumloN meN lafz "haiN" kii ba-jaa'e lafz "ho" bolnaa bi_lkul Ghalat hai. aise mauqa3 par fi3l amr kaa saHiiH isti3maal mundarajah-i-zail jumloN se zaahir hai.

    tum yahiiN baiTho, aap yahiiN baiTheN yaa baiThiye yaa baiThiye gaa. lekin "aap yahiiN baiTho" kahnaa Ghalat hai."

    Professor Anand Naath Verma, MA (Hindu College Delhi). The book is called "Nikaat-i-Anand ma3roof bah Urdu kii islaaH" 9th June 1941.

     
  16. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    My observations about imperative (aap) baiTho/baiTheN/baiTHiye/baiThiyegaa in Indian colloquial Hindi:

    1. aap baiTho -> Widespread. Felt to be friendly yet formal. More common towards the Western parts, e.g. Delhi than in the East, e.g. in Bihar.
    2. aap baiTheN -> Widely understood, but I don't think it is widely actively used. Not sure about the regional distribution, but I think not so common in the East.
    3. aap baiThiye -> Widespread. Formal and respectful. Somewhat more common in the East than in the West (which also has form 1 commonly).
    EDIT: I am not totally sure, but I think this form is not used in Haryana.
    4. aap baiThiyegaa -> Widely understood. Formal and respectful, but with a lopsided Eastern distribution. Very common in Bihar, but almost unheard in Delhi. It may additionally imply a future imperative, rather than a present imperative implied by the other 3 forms. Colloquial Western Hindi often expresses this sense as "aap baiThnaa". Corresponding Haryanvi tuu-form is "tuu baiThiyo" - not sure if there is an aap-form.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Professor C.M Naim in his "Introductory Urdu" Volume 1, University of Chicago 1999 in Section 94 on imperatives has this to say.

    "To sum up, we list below the various imperative forms of the verb/jaanaa/, "to go", in their order of increasing politeness together with the relevant second person pronominal forms.

    tuu jaa, tum jaaoo, tum jaanaa, aap jaaeeN, aap jaaiyee, aap jaa'iye gaa".

    As I have indicated before he is from Barabanki in UP, India. So, speakers of Urdu in India also use the "aap ---eN" form. The author does not indicate any restrictions on this form. I personally do not apply such labels as Pakistani Urdu or Indian Urdu because there is no one Pakistani Urdu, neither is there one Indian Urdu.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Punjabi does have a polite form and I use it all the time...

    tuu kariiN.....tusiiN kariyo
     
  19. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I learned that form in 2009. I stand corrected! Not one I hear very often in my family, but I hear it now that I've learned it.

    Dib Ji, this is very interesting. We've discussed this before, but I am very used to hearing "tu kariyo" from my mother. I'm told this is Haryanvi-ish.
     
  20. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Does Prof. Naim usually explain language variations in his "Introductory Urdu"? I'd guess only advanced learners might be interested in such things. I don't know how often Urdu speakers in India use the aap ...-eN form, but I don't think Prof. Naim's non-statement can be taken as an evidence for/against that. His statement, on the other hand, is an evidence, that this form is considered part of standard Urdu grammar. Importantly, there are approximate replacements available within the standard grammar (aap ...-iye). So, it is not unthinkable that there might be two perfectly standard Urdu speakers, one using mostly -eN and the other mostly -iye. I find this part in the original post relevant:

    If this is true, then this obviously is a case of skewed preference. Isn't it?
     
  21. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Yup. As I mentioned above, I too think this is Haryana style.
     
  22. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I thought I had made my point quite clear.

    To reitterate, "aap -eN" is one of several forms used in the capacity of an imperative ranging from the simple root of the verb with tuu to root + iye + gaa with aap. There is no negativity of any sort attached to the "root + eN" form. Urdu speakers would use any of these forms depending on the situation. On top of that, I accept individual speakers may have their own preference. You and I might feel "aap baiTheN" is fine for our particular situation, another person may always go for "aap baiThiye" or "aap baiThiye gaa"..."aap tashriif rakhiye"..."aap tashriif rakhiye gaa".

    And to answer your question, yes, he does go into grammatical vaiations not only within Urdu but brings in the Hindi comparison as well. No doubt, there will be plenty of "-eN" examples in his reading exercises which form part 2 of his book.

    According to "Baabaa-i-Urdu", Maulavii Abdul Haq...and I quote..

    ba3z auqaat masdar bhii amr kaa kaam dtaa hai. is se maziid taakiid maqsuud hotii hai jaise "jaldii aanaa, kahiiN raste meN nah rah jaanaa". ziyaadah ta3ziim ke liye amr Ghaa'ib kaa siiGhah isti3maal karte haiN jaise "aap tashriif rakheN", "aap vahaaN nah jaa'iN". kabhii aur ziyaadah ta3ziim ke liye amr ke ba3d ye aur hamzah baRhaa deta haiN jaise, "aa'iye, khaa'iye" vaGhairah".

    Maulavii Abdul Haq (1872-1961 born Hapur, UP)
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I don't know about Haryanavi but are you sure "kariyo" goes with "tuu" and not "tussiN"?
     
  24. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    My doubt is whether it purely depends on the situation. Whether the choice is not influenced by other factors, like social and regional backgrounds of the speaker. lcfatima's original post and other responses suggest, those factors are relevant. Grammars and course books of standard Urdu may not discuss such variations, because the standard language is meant to mask those variations in the first place. But they are relevant in the context of the present thread. The questions in this thread were:

    Is the preference between -o, -iye and -eN forms influenced by:
    a) whether the speaker is from India or Pakistan?
    b) the level of Punjabi influence on them?
    c) whether it is an Urdu or a Hindi speaker?

    All I am saying is that, personal observations from various members have suggested "yes" to a and b, and probably c. Prof Naim and Maulavii Abdul Haq are silent about it. In such a case, I don't think their silence can be interpreted to contradict the forum members' observations.
     
  25. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Dib SaaHib, since the inception of this thread there have been other threads where yours truly and other friends have provided plenty of food for thought to people who have made unsubstantiated assertions regarding the springing up of "aap ho" and "maiN ne karnaa hai" forms under Punjabi influence. There is no need to repeat the same old things over over again. One such thread is..

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=888829&highlight=maine

    A lot of the times people comment about Punjabi influence without knowing Punjabi. And this knowledge is helpful to work out whether these claims are logical or not.

    a) No

    b) None

    c) I am not sure, but I don't think so

    Have you read both C.M. Naim and Maulavi Abdul Haq's books? I believe they have made remarks on both these points.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  26. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This is also the case for Urdu. At least it had a future connotation which is probably lost now.

    "kabhii is suurat-i-ta3ziimii ke aaxir meN maziid ta3ziim ke liye "gaa" bhii baRhaa dete haiN. jaise "aaiye gaa", "farmaa'iye gaa", "kiijiye gaa" (yih dar Haqiiqat mustaqbil kii suurat hai)". (Maulavii Abdul Haq, Qavaa3id-i-Urdu 1914)
     
  27. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Hindi:
    नए उपयोगकर्ता यूज़र आईडी बनाने के लिए पासपोर्ट सेवा पोर्टल के माध्यम से रजिस्टर करें|(आवेदन के अंतर्गत "रजिस्टर" लिंक पर क्लिक करें|)
    कदम ३ में बनाये गए यूज़र आईडी से लाँगिन करें| etc. etc.
    Transliteration:
    na'e upyog-kartaa user ID banaane ke lie paasporT seva porTal ke maadhyam se rajisTar kareN. (aavedan ke antargat ''rajisTar'' link par klik kareN.)
    kadam 3 meN banaaye gae user ID se login kareN

    Source: Passport Seva,Consular, Passport & Visa Division, Ministry of External Affairs, Government of India
    http://passportindia.gov.in/AppOnlineProject/online/procFormSubOnl
     
  28. Chhaatr Senior Member

    Hindi
    Marrish SaaHib aap aaeN, baiTheN, chaae piieN. aap is tarah ke vaakya Hindi bhaashiyoN se kam hii suneNge. saadhaaraNRtaha zyaadaatar log kaheNge: Marrish saahab aaiie, baiThie, chaae piijie.
     
  29. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Chhaatr SaaHib shukriyah. Urdu-goyaan bhii ma3muulan ziyaadah Chhaatr SaaHib aa'iye baiThiye chaa'e piijiye kaheN ge kyoN kih mihmaan ke saath yahii xitaab munaasib hae. yih ek mu'addabaanah guzaarish kaa ruup hotaa hae HaalaaNkih diigar Haalaat meN Urdu-go logoN ke paas mauq3e ke mutaabiq ziyaadah intixaab kii sahuulat maujuud hae: har suurat-e-Haal meN zaruurii nahiiN kih jo ham kisii se kahte haiN wuh ek mu'addabaanah guzaarish ho; kuchh Haalaat aise bhii hote haiN jab hameN kisii ke karne yaa nah karne se farq to nahiiN paRne waalaa hae phir bhii hamaaraa kisii ko hidaayat dene kaa maqsad hae. jaise uupar dii ga'ii Hindii kii misaal meN, wazaarat yih nahiiN kah rahii kih ''kripayaa klik kiijiye, kripayaa login kiijiye'' is liye kih yih ek guzaarish nahiiN, hidaayat hae. yuuN kahiye kih yih ''kripayaa chaa'e piijiye hameN bahut xushii ho gii'' ''aap ko form bharnaa hae to klik kareN, login kareN.'' kaa farq hae.
     
  30. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    a) -o, although polite, depends on the speaker's manners and language awareness/training. -eN vs. -iye: both are used in India and in Pakistan. Every speaker - whether one uses more -eN or -iye, knows both of them. Which one is preferred - that is what we are trying to find out. So far we have got opinions about Hindi in the Indian context and Urdu (I can say I agree with CM Naim's description and I have read and heard Urdu speakers from India use -eN and -iye - both of them).
    b) not relevant
    c) possibly - according to Chhaatr SaaHib - yes.
    On hindsight I can see that this example is not self-evident as it starts with na'e upyog-kartaa (new users), not with aap. na'e upyog-kartaa rajisTar kareN. Let new users register/May the new users register (themselves).
     
  31. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Sorry about that. I am learning slowly about the history of this forum. One thing that I have learnt is that "purported Punjabi influences" on Urdu are not kindly viewed. But now I understand that this sort of "bad-mouthing" is some of the baggage that comes with wide-spread language contact. It is actually happening in Bengali society too, as contacts with English and Hindi increase, though at a much smaller scale than the Punjabi-Urdu/Hindi situation, where some people love to blame Hindi and English influences for everything that they perceive as degradation in the "quality" (whatever that means) of Bengali.

    I took some time to go through a couple of long threads (maine and chahiye) following your leads. I see what you mean by "unsubstantiated" assertions. I have myself wondered about the "maiN ne" thingie before, as it is concentrated in the Hindi of North-Western Hindi belt and Punjab in India, but doesn't seem to have a Punjabi origin. I am still reading the very interesting paper you attached in the maine thread. Thanks for that. I wish we could find a similar study of the "aap ho" form - or even better, the evolution of the very interesting word "aap" plus its grammar.

    Thanks for your views.



    Nope. Maybe I should have been clearer. I meant, the excerpts, you quoted from their works, didn't shed any light on this purported variation. In any case, of course, the burden of proof lies with those who claim that there exists a variation. To me, however, it is interesting that many people in this thread seem to have anecdotal evidence of this variation (though, they may well be wrong about the reasons, and even details of the regional/social distributions) but you seem to have none (or did I misinterprete you?). Anyways, I don't think we can reconcile it in a forum like this. This needs actual linguistic field work.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  32. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Thank you, jee, for your detailed response. Btw, by "not relevant" do you mean, your response to (b) is "No", or do you mean that this question itself is not relevant?
     
  33. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I hope there is no misunderstanding. From my personal perspective if something has a verifiable basis, then there is no problem whatsoever in my accepting it. For example, I know for a fact that Punjabis generally do not pronounce the ق correctly. This is a reality and there is no point denying it. I just feel that for all the "anomalies" , the centre of gravity seems to be Punjabi.* But I am not convinced for constructions such as "aap ho" and "maiN ne jaanaa hai" etc especially when for the latter there are two written examples (in the maine thread) from mother tongue speakers and plenty of examples of the spoken form from mother tongue speakers of both "aap ho" and "maiN ne jaanaa hai". For me the most convincing argument against these assertions is that Punjabi grammar does not "match up" with these formations.

    * How many other language communities within India and Pakistan pronounce the qaaf correctly? Does anyone mention that? How often have you heard that such and such an Urdu construction is due to Sindhi, Pashto, Gujarati, Bengali.....? You might also wish to take a look at a thread called "desideratives" and "Havas"...and this one.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1950498&highlight=kariye
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2014
  34. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    We also had this thread too.
     
  35. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)


    I see what you mean.

    While you are probably right in your conclusion that these are not examples of Punjabi influence, examples from contemporary "mother tongue" speakers are not good evidence for that, if the influence was drawn a while ago. To take an extreme example, think about the izaafaa construction in Urdu. It's certainly Persian, but everybody uses it.

    Certainly.

    Almost never, but that may have to do with the widespread currency of Urdu in Punjab as a language of culture. I don't know about Sindhi or Pashto, but we do hear about influence of Telugu and Marathi on Dakhini Urdu, and Bhojpuri and Magahi on Bihari Hindi though, and there may be some variants in Gujarat too. I have seen Urdu signs and messages written in Gujarati script in mosques in Ahmedabad, suggesting close interaction between the two. In Bengal and many other places in India, Hindi/Urdu traditionally had a very weak presence. So, this question never came up, I suppose.
     
  36. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You're welcome! Sorry for conciseness bordering incomprehensibility - I mean that it is not relevant as Punjabi language is concerned - that is there is no analogy between polite Urdu-Hindi kareN and Punjabi. Perhaps some people who use this form are Punjabis themselves and Urdu or Hindi is their second language but in my opinion it doesn't change anything - kareN, likheN, jaa'eN are correct Urdu/Hindi grammar formations and quite idiomatic.
     
  37. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    First of all, -eN forms are certainly perfectly grammatical, standard and idiomatic. I guess, there's no doubt about that. However, it would also be interesting to understand the distribution of actual occurrence of this form in comparison to other imperatives. Though you are again perfectly reasonable to point out that the kareN usage has nothing in common with Punjabi, some more complex interactions cannot be ruled out, e.g. is it possible that 1st/2nd language Punjabi speakers might disfavour -iye imperatives of Hindi-Urdu because of its formal similarity to Punjabi 1st person plural? I don't know the answer, but I suppose it is a relevant question to ask.
     
  38. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I personally don't know how one can carry out a statistical analysis of "-eN" imperative in relationship to others based on data numbering half a dozen or so people's replies. I can't imagine Punjabi speakers consciously thinking about Punjabi subjunctive in the 1st person plural and then deciding....oh we better not use "kiijiye" "aa'iye"..."baiThiye" because it has some resemblance with our "kariye", "aa'iye" and "baviye"!
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014
  39. littlepond Senior Member

    Hindi
    Isi liye to, Quresh jii, Dib jii ne apni post number ikattis mein kahaa thaa: "Anyways, I don't think we can reconcile it in a forum like this. This needs actual linguistic field work." :)
     
  40. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    Assuming that those half a dozen people have interacted with people from various backgrounds regularly, they would have an impression about the distribution of the variation, if any, (that's how we learn to recognize accents, etc.). It's approximate, the impression will almost certainly be wrong in details, but if everybody roughly agreed, that would support the presence of such a variation. With such a small sample size, as you rightly pointed out, even a single disagreement is, however, significant. In any case, accurate results can only be obtained from a proper fieldwork, as I mentioned in post #31, that littlepond quoted above.

    EDIT: I was also hoping against hope, that someone might be aware of a relevant linguistic study already.

    Thanks for your opinion. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2014

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