Urdu/Hindi: Female equivalent of "maa'ii kaa laal".

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Mar 4, 2012.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    When a man challenges another man, especially in the film world, one often hears " ko'ii hai maa'ii kaa laal jo....". If a woman was in that kind of mood, how would she address other women to seek out a female counterpart?
     
  2. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Purely instinctively I would have said: laalan ! But then laalan has many meaning and not the one we are looking for:

    S لالن लालन lālan, adj. Caressing, fondling, indulging, spoiling; coaxing, wheedling;—s.m. The act of caressing, fondling, petting, &c. &c.;—s.f. A mistress, sweetheart:—lālan-pālan, s.m. Caressing and cherishing.

    The point is that such challenges (ko'ii hai maa'ii kaa laal jo....) are issued by those members of the human species who have a Y chromosome and consequently high levels of testosterone. Since women have neither we really don’t have a feminine of ‘laal’ - at least not in this sense that I can think of at present.
     
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    From my line of work, even the absence of the Y chromosome does not stop many a female from portraying those characteristics which one would normally expect a possessor of a Y chromosome to have! Besides, this is an exercise in language. Just imagine a female equivalent of Bruce Lee coming up with the challenge!:)
     
  4. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Of course I know what you mean! But as this kind of language goes it has until recently been very much a male domain! A female Bruce Lee challenging a male would of course use the same expression! But if she were to challenge another female ... now that is a challenge! I mean to look for an equivalent expression. I can't recall any film where such a scene took place and such an expression was uttered by one woman to another!

    Needless to say there are gender neutral expressions which members of either sex can use, viz. ko'ii hai jo meraa muqaabalah kare! / ko'ii hai jo mere muqaabale ko nilkle! Just like the old Arabic expression: hal min mubaariz!
     
  5. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Can you please list a movie this is heard in. Thanks.
     
  6. souminwé Senior Member

    Vancouver, Canada
    North American English, Hindi
    Can we say maa'i ki laalini? Or laaliya (sounds a bit strange...)
     
  7. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
  8. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    A laal isn't like a laaDla? I am having to guess at the meaning here from all this testosterone talk. Can someone clarify the meaning of maa'i ka laal?
     
  9. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    Icfatima here's the thread for you!
     
  10. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    H مائي माई māʼī, or माइ māʼi, or माए māʼe [Prk. माइआ; S. मातृका], s.f. Mother, &c. (=, q.v.);—a woman's breast.

    H لال लाल lāl [Pers. also lāl; prob. S. लाल, fr. caus. of rt. लल्; cf. lāṛ and lāṛlā], adj. Beloved, darling, dear, precious;—dumb;—s.m. An infant boy, a son; a darling, a pet;—a proper name (among Hindūs):—lāl-bujhakkar, s.m. An ignorant (or a stupid) fellow who pretends to knowledge or acuteness, an ignoramus, a jackanapes, wiseacre:—lāl-beg, or lāl-gurū, s.m. The priest of the sweeper caste:—lāl-begiyā, s.m. A follower of Lāl-Beg:—lāloṅ-kā lāl, adj. & s.m. Most dear; very dear;—the dearest of dear ones.

    Therefore maaii kaa laal is mother's son or mother's beloved.
     
  11. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    I took it to mean more like a mama's boy, but thought based on the thread contents that it had some other meaning. Yes, I remember the 'laal' thread. Thanks.

    Hmmm.
    That's really interesting...I have heard people use laal-baig to refer to cockroaches (not sure if this is slang). I had no idea that it was a caste reference. Is this the same word. I have also heard roach called laal-pabakkar (or something like that, though not bujhakkar). I always thought this laal was a reference to the reddish-brown coloring. But it must be this 'laal' here provided in the dictionary entry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2012
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Those acquainted with Sahir's Urdu work "talxiyaaN" would be aware of the following lines from his nazm "chakle" (Brothels)

    madad chaahtii hai yih Havvaa kii beTii
    Yashodhaa kii ham-jins Raadhaa kii beTii
    payamabar kii ummat, Zulaixaa kii beTii

    sanaa-xvaan-i-taqdiis-i-mashriq kahaaN haiN

    Crying out for support is this Eve's daughter
    Who is Yashodhaa's sister, Raadhaa's daughter
    One of the Prophet's nation, Zulaixaa's daughter

    Where are those who praise the sanctity of the East?

    After this "prologue", how does "Havvaa kii beTii" sound as an equivalent of "maa'ii kaa laal"?
     
  13. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    So damn good translation is it!

    Yes, it sounds very well.
     
  14. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I had these in mind, esp. the first, but I don't think we use them in Urdu - well at least not our Urdu! Perhaps other dialects, like Awadhi/ Bhojpuri.
     
  15. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    It has been suggested by Neha Ladha on Hindi-Urdu Flasgship's Hindi Spken Thesaurus that someone could use the idiom:

    "Aap kii HIMMAT?!" to challenge someone. Could this be an equivalent for women?
     
  16. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    In a word, no! "aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii himmat?!" can be said by either a male or a female to members of their own or opposite sex. It is totally gender neutral! In idiomatic English it'll be "how dare you!". An equivalent of this is "aap kii / tumhaarii/ terii majaal?!"
     
  17. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    hmm. I didn't know it had to be female-only. I'm afraid we will never find an equivalent.

    Do you mean "how dare you?" or "i dare you!" ? She made it seem as if it were "I dare you".
     
  18. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    I mean this: "how dare you?" for the above expressions with himmat and majaal.

    ... and yes we are looking for a female equivalent of maa'ii kaa laal !
     
  19. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Well, perhaps we will!

    How does "maaN kii jaa'ii" or "maa'ii kii jaa'ii" sound?
     
  20. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    QP SaaHib, as we use it and as many Urdu lexicons say as well, "maaN kii jaa'ii" literally means "maaN kii beTii", jaa'ii being just the feminine of "jaayaa", both were mentioned here (posts # 5 & 6). If you are asking for a feminine of "laal". then I'm not sure if we have one.
     
  21. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    Could laali be used? It seems to be used in (probably, not sure) Sindhi, along with laala....or maybe that means brother...?
     
  22. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Let me chime in with my perception which is new but is not necessarily corrct, though.

    I think we don't need any female equivalent here.

    ko'ii maa'ii kaa la3l - a ruby stone (very big mostly) carressed and looked after by mothers - and by eponymy, applied to sons? (meaning that it is well cherished, good upbrought and precious). I may be at least indulging into folk etymology, but I think it is right...
     
  23. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Believe it or not marrish and QP SaaHibaan, there is a feminine of لال laal ! It is لالڑی laalRii !!

    So now we can finish the exercise: “ ko’ii hai maa’ii kii laalRii jo ...!”
     
  24. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Faylasoof SaaHib, your statement is very plausible, but what if it is لعل?
     
  25. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    The expression as QP SaaHib gave is always with laal. Same meaning as laaDlaa, feminine laaDlii.

    While لعل is Arabic, I'm not sure if takes لعلة / لعله as a feminine form and whether it would even fit in this usage. I guess not.
     
  26. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Faylasoof SaaHib.When marrish SaaHib used "maa'ii kaa la3l" in Roman and you replied by using "laal" in Urdu script, I got the strange feeling that marrish SaaHib is possibly implying that the word "laal" is or should be "la3l". I know we have discussed this in a seperate thread but looking at the definions for "laal" in Platts, I have got a bit confused. I think Platts is (at least) implying that "laal" (red) is the "bigRii shakl" of "la3l" (ruby). I still think that it is Jawahar La3l Nahru but we shall not go into this yet again.
     
  27. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    Actually, QP SaaHIb, laal is listed in standard Urdu dictionaries for both ruby (la3l) but also for a ‘favourite son’ and anyone who says maa’ii would also be expected to say the Indic laal and not the Arabic la3l.

    The feminine of laal is listed in several Urdu lexicons as laalRii. Unlike laaDlaa / laaDlii, it seems to alter internally by adding ‘R’ before ending in the usual change of –aa to –ii to give the feminine.
     
  28. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Very valid, that what has been said before, but I feel in this expression the two are convergent. (might be wrong, not sure, maybe yes or maybe not, yes or not....)
     
  29. jakubisek Junior Member

    Czechia
    Czech
    Interesting, why Yashodaa's as well as Radha's daughter?! (For those not acquainted with Hindu myths, Yashoda was Krishna's foster mother while Raadhaa was his secret lover!)
     
  30. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The Urdu line is...

    Yashodhaa kii ham-jins, Raadhaa kii beTii where ham-jins means "of the same sex".

    So, more accurately this line should translate as.

    A female like Yashodhaa, a daughter of Raadhaa
     
  31. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I apologize for such a long delay in acknowledging your suggestion. I meant to come back to it but for some reason it slipped my mind to do so.

    Yes, "laalRii" is an excellent suggestion and a perfect idiomatic equivalent for the challenge put forward from the female perspective. I have good mind to suggest that "maa'ii-laalRii" could be an innovation for a "challenge" in Alfaaz SaaHib's "challenge" thread. :)

    challenge = maa'ii-laalRii (to challenge..maa'ii-laalRii karnaa)

    challenges = maa'ii-laalRiyaaN

    challenging = maa'ii-laalRiyaa
     

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