Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by albondiga, Feb 23, 2008.
What does the Urdu "e" (when used as in Mughal-e-azam, etc.) correspond to in Hindi?
It doesn't translate in Hindi:
This e is called Izâfâ (in Persian, pronounce: Ezofê), it is used in two instances,
Fists to mark the possessive, as in Jân-e man... Which proper Urdu / Hindi translation would be meri jân... (man in this expression is not the hindi 'man' but the Persian for me), in this instance then, e can be translated in Hindi by ka, ke, kî but notice that words are the other way round in both languages.
Secondly, it is used after a noun and before the adjective qualifying it... (Remember that it's once more there is a difference in word order between the Indian and the Persian systems): Mughal-e-a'zam... (=BaRâ Mughal... Akh, doesn't sound good) The Great Mughal...
What's nice with Urdu, it's that it uses both systems together...
It's really just reserved for poetry and some stock phrases in Hindi/Urdu nowadays. For example, the death penalty is /saza e maut/.
It's a nifty construction from Persian and I wish we saw it some more.
Aha, much clearer now... thanks!
panjabigator, its not reserved for poetry and archaic phrases, its pretty current.
Thinking an example off the top of my head: 'abhi ibtida-e-kaam hi meiN tha keh aapka bulava aa gaya' -> I'd just begun work when you called.
What I mean is that you can't go around and create new phrases that follow this construction, i.e., <ghar kii laD.kii> cannot be <laD.kii-e-ghar>.
When I was living in Lucknow, I did encounter the izafat a lot with Urdu speakers, so it is very much alive and kicking.
Why can't you? Ghar ki kaRki becomes dosheeza-e-ghar. Do it all the time. Am culpable of being among the progeny of Lucknowites though!
Hey gator, have you some tips to get my Panjabi accent right? I've tried speaking words shared by Urdu and Panjabi the Panjabi way but believe me I was the lone kid at school who couldn't. Which parts of the mouth do I need to stress using? Its a bit nasal I know, which btw is a pronunciational sin in Urdu.
Ahl-e Zubaan kehtey hain... k.... Izafa compounds should only be used with Persian words... So you could make it dosheeza-e-khaanaa...
Actually I find it funny having desi words in Izaafa compounds...
Imagine, the extreme of it could be something like kuRi-e-piND.....
Yeah, dosheeza-e-khaana is the correct term, but nothing stops us using badly invented ones as long as the person you're speaking to doesn't know!
Exactly; But it is a fact that people have started using it with non-persian words... Which is perfectly fine and funny... I guess that these izafat constructions come more spontaneously to people reading (even modern) Urdu poetry where it is freely used
Have they now? I haven't heard many people even use it where it could be, remaining well within persian constructs. Not sure about the poetry thing, but those whos mother tongue is Urdu use it more often than others.
It only gets funny when I try to innovate! Some in the audience have a good laugh out of it.
Dosheeza e ghar! Woah, what a creation. Indic meets Persian.
As for your accent, I suggest that you enunciate every sound. Break up conjunct clusters and practice your tones. It also depends on which Panjabi you want to emulate.
Sorry mate, I meant dosheeza-e-khaana. Plural: dosheezaan-e-khaana. Very useful phrase.
About Panjabi speech, I find that one word almost flows into the other, almost like French. That's a different behaviour from the two other tonal languages I've heard, Mandarin and Sindhi.
The e is a shorter altenative, maybe even a condensed version, of haaey (ھاے). The latter is heavy and almost restricted to poetry and written prose. E.g. inqilaabaat haaey zamaana vs inqilaabaat-e-zamaana.
This plural of doosheezah / -eh is wrong! When a Farsi noun ends in a ‘-ah’ / ‘-eh’, then the plural is formed by adding –gaan not –aan:
bachchah / eh (sing.) but bachchagaan / bachchegaan (plural)
doosheezah / eh (sing.) -> dooshezagaan / dooshezegaan (plural)
[The –ah vs –eh is a difference of pronunciation between Indo-Pak Farsi (-ah) vs Iranian (-eh)]
Thanks for the correction. It sounded wrong the moment I wrote it but I shrugged it off. Yeah, your word rhymes well with zachchagaan au bhachchagaan.
So Heela becomes Heelagaan as well?
The word inqilaabaat is itself a plural of inqilaab, so inqilaabaathaa would make it a jam’-ul-jama’. I know both Urdu and Arabic use jam’-ul-jama’. For example:
In Urdu we use vajah (sing.) à vujooh (pl) à vujoohaat (pl. of pl.,i.e. jam’-ul-jama’). I’m not sure if Farsi also does this. Usually I have read inqilaabhaa in Farsi.
The e (izaafah) can be used in both singular and plurals as follows:
inqilaab-e-zamaanah ( انقلابِ زمانہ ) vs. inqilaabhaay-e-zamaanah ( انقلابھایِ زمانہ ).
In speech one often hears inqilaabaay-e-zamaanah - without the 'h'.
Are you sure you're noy confusing the plural for with the connecting word ھاے? As in kaarobaar haaey Hayaat or paaey haaey istaqlaal. Ghaalib used this heavy construction often during his early period.
For Heelah (= حِیلَہ) there is the Arabic broken plural Hiyal (= حِیَل).
But another good example is:
numaayandah = نمایندہ, gives the plural numaayandegaan = نمایندگان
Farsi forms plurals in various way:
by adding -aan / -gaan (we already have examples above). Also -yaan as in aaqaa / aaghaa --> aaqaayaan / aaghayaan
by adding jaat,as in sabzi --> sabzijaat
by adding -haa, asb (horse) --> asbhaa. This is used very frequently and may be used for both rational and irrational beings, as well as inanimate objects, e.g. kitaab --> kitaabhaa; medaad --> medaadhaa; etc.
Adjectives, following nouns etc. go at the very end: asbhaay-e-khoob = Good horses, as opposed to asb-e-khobi = a / the good horse (context depending).
In poetry Ghalib used haay-e- even when it would not be used in prose, e.g. naghmah-haay-e-gham. As normally naghmah takes the regular Arabic feminine plural naghmaat, Ghalib would seem to be breaking this rule. But he isn't. In poetry a number of things are allowed for the sake of prosody. All about balance. So we see him use this plural form frequently. Similarly, a poet would use ki instead of keh, because in poetry and only in poetry it was meant to be used, just as ze insteadof az is used often in poetry. The former (ze) is not used in prose and common speech where one should always use the latter (az). Poetic licence allows you to do quite a few things.
I'm not sure if I have answered your question. I think I have.
You did. Tashakkur-e-besyaar.
By ze do you means saying something like <kam ze kam> instead of <kam az kam>?
Oh no! Not that! We never use it like that in Urdu. What I said was that only in poetry is it allowed to use ze, if required. For example:
زبس كہ مشقِ تماشا جنوں علامت ہے
كشاد و بستِ مژہ سیلی ندامت ہے
ze bas keh mashq-e-tamaasha junooN ‘alamat hai
kushaad o bast-e-muzhah seelee nidaamat hai
OR, as I already quoted Amir Khusrao's verse in the post about qawwali / Chishti:
ze haal-e-miskiN makon taghaaful duraay naina banaay batyaN
But in prose and speech we don't use ze, always az. So it will always be kam az kam or az yaaN ta waaN = yahaaN se wahaaN tak... and to be honest I can't recall a single Urdu (or Farsi) verse at the moment where kam az kam was used, but kam se kam I do recall but not too well right now. I shall need to look for these! Doesn't mean it hasn't been used.
I have saved most of this discussion, because, vocabulary apart, the ezafe is the one grammar thing that I've found that significantly makes a difference between "Hindi" and "Urdu".
But you do find izafa within Hindi as well. Certain phrases like <saza e maut> for the death penalty, for example. I've yet to hear a "Hindi" equivalent.
I think here we get into the old problem of what is Hindi vs Urdu!
Non-Sanskritised Hindi and what we call middle register Urdu have a lot in common! They are virtually the same. Once this was called 'Hindustani' and, as we were recently discussing, Gandhi was hoping that this would become the national language of an undivided India! Afterall, Hindustani had spread all the way to west in the Punjab and to the east in Bengal. The latter was quite something as Bengalis are very proud of their own language, and rightly so.
Gandhi had opted for the Nagri script for this lingua franca of the sub-continent for obvious reasons
PG, 2 things
1 - It doesn't matter that the word maut is Arabic and sazaa is Persian and they've been joined by a Persian/Urdu connecting Harkat, the term is widely understood and therefore a Hindi one as any other.
2 - Izaafa in itself may not be Hindi rule, since Hindiphones do not invent new terms like that on a during their daily conversations. Can you hand out sazaa-e-detention to an unruly school kid?
If qisse is the correct plural for qissah(story) then can we use it with Izâfâ like qisse-e-muhabbat or qisse-e-ishq?
For eg -
ab tumhein apne qisse-e-muhabbat kya sunayein?
No, that usage is considered wrong in Urdu. The plural forms in an izafat construction must be of Persian or Arabic.
The following variants of your sentence will be considered correct:
ab tumheN apne qissa-haa-e-mahabbat kyaa sunaaeN?
ab tumheN apne qisas-e-mahabbat kyaa sunaaeN?
thanks a lot pakistani khan sir
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