Urdu-Hindi: Past tense construction to depict future 2

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Dec 15, 2013.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    This thread is a continuation from the closed thread whose link is given below.

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2386867&highlight=past+for+future

    In this thread I have argued that in Urdu, a form that in appearance resembles a past tense, can in fact give future meaning. A number of examples were provided there. Urdu speakers agreed that this formation exists in Urdu but most Hindi speakers were of the view that this type of sentence is wrong.

    Today, I was watching a short Youtube video (1.22 minutes) in which Imran Khan was speaking. At 1.07 there is a caption in Urdu which says...

    jis din Supreme Court ne 4 HalqoN kii tasdiiq karvaa'ii, taariixii dhaaNdlii saamne aa'e gii.

    The day Supreme Court verifies/will verify the four constituencies, a historical rigging will come to light.

    Fortunately, we have several new arrivals to the Forum from Hindi speaking background. It would be good if they are able to take a quick look at the linked thread and offer their views here. Is the sentence quoted in this thread correct as far as Hindi grammar is concerned.
     
  2. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    I am not well-acquainted with formal Hindi grammar, but I do hear this kind of usage in the spoken language. Perfectly fine by me.

    EDIT: By "formal", I meant "prescriptive".
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2013
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you. Hopefully we'll get more responses from Hindi speakers.
     
  4. littlepond Senior Member

    Hindi
    I think it'd be good that the moderators either reopen that thread or close this thread as well. There are several good points made there by greatbear jii, so it's not worthwhile to go over them again. The sentence in the OP of this particular thread looks fine, but is it of the same genre as the sentences quoted from Alfaaz jii's post in the original thread is very much doubtful to me.
     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I think it is best if this decision is left with the moderators.

    I believe the sentence quoted in my opening post and the sentences quoted from Alfaaz SaaHib in the opening post of the linked thread are the same so far as the use of past tense in the first clause and future tense in the second clause is concerned. If you don't agree with this, that's fine.
     
  6. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    According to Hindi grammar, a past tense can give future meaning:

    (1) कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 168 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 168):

    One of the usages of the simple past tense is an action that will occur in the near future:

    तुम चलो, मैं आया। (tum chalo, maiN aayaa.)



    (2) कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 222 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 222):

    The simple past tense can give future meaning in conditional sentences:

    अगर आपने मुझे बुलाया, तो मैं आऊँगा। (agar aap ne mujhe bulaayaa, to maiN aa'uuNgaa.)

    यदि मैं अमरिका गई, तो आपके पास जर्मनी में रुकूँगी। (yadi maiN America ga'ii, to aap ke paas Germany meN rukuuNgii.)

    अगर तुम वर्षा में भीगे, तो बीमार हो जाओगे। (agar tum varshaa meN bhiige, to biimaar ho jaa'oge.)


    --------------------------------


    According to Hindi grammar, in using "जैसे ही"(jaise hii), both verbs should be used in same tense:
    It means:
    <"jaise hii" + past tense, ...past tense> ; like third example (III)
    <"jaise hii" + present tense, ...present tense> ; like first example (I)
    <"jaise hii" + future tense, ...future tense> ; like fourth example (IV)

    कविता कुमार, हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण, पृष्ठ 238 (kavitaa kumaar, hindii vyaakaran, ek naviin drishTikon, page 238):


    (I) जैसे ही मुझे समय मिलता है, मैं हिंदी सीखता हूँ। (jaise hii mujhe samay miltaa hai, maiN hindii siikhtaa huuN.)

    (II) जैसे ही पिता जी घर से निकलते थे, बच्चे खेलने लगते थे। (jaise hii pitaa jii ghar se nikalte the, bachche khelne lagte the.)

    (III) जैसे ही वह तैयार हुआ, हम चल पड़े। (jaise hii vo tayyaar hu'aa, ham chal paRe.)

    (IV) जैसे ही हम नया घर ख़रीदेंगे, आप सब को दावत देंगे। (jaise hii ham nayaa ghar xariideNge, aap sab ko daavat (da3vat) deNge.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^
    Thank you for your quoting from Kavita Kumar’s grammar book. May I ask if she has acknowledged the sources, if any, that she has resorted to in writing her grammar book?

    The example you have given “tum chalo maiN aayaa” has already been mentioned by me in the linked thread, Urdu-Hindi: Past tense construction to depict future. As for the use of past tense for future in conditional sentences, our Hindi speaking friends do not have a problem with it. So, we need not bring this construction into the discussion even though in my view the use of past tense in the first clause to depict future is independent of “agar”, “jab”, “jaise hii”, “jyuuN hii” etc.

    I can’t quite understand what is so unique about “jaise hii” that its presence compels the verb to be in the same form in both the clauses. What logic does Kavita Kumar base her claim on?

    I am grateful to you for your no doubt time consuming research and coming up with quotes from Kavita Kumar’s book. But the quote most relevant to this thread is no. III but even this translates into two past tense clauses.

    (III) जैसे ही वह तैयार हुआ, हम चल पड़े। (jaise hii vo tayyaar hu'aa, ham chal paRe.)

    As soon as he was ready, we set off.

    So, in terms of our discussion, we don’t seem to have moved forward.
     
  8. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I think I have found a written instance in Hindi of past tense following jaise hii which clearly expresses the future, just as it is used in Urdu. I'm quoting a larger context, here we go:

    इस शरीर को जैसे ही तुमने ज्ञान दिया। इस शरीर में कब तक रहेगा जब तक ये शरीर है। जहाँ ये शरीर बंद हुआ और अगले जन्म में दूसरा शरीर मिला, तब सब कुछ सफाचट मिलेगा कुछ भी नहीं मिलेगा। उसको मेमोरी ही नहीं है तो कहाँ से आयेगा, उसके पास, बस ऐसे ही तो हमने किया। (a certain Vivek Jha, N. Delhi)

    is shariir ko jaise hii tumne gyaan diyaa, is shariir meN kab tak rahegaa jab tak ye shariir hai. jahaaN ye shariir baNd huaa aur agle janm meN duusraa shariir milaa , tab sab kuchh safaachaT milegaa, kuchh bhii nahiiN milegaa. usko 'memory' hii nahiiN hai to kahaaN se aayegaa, uske paas, bas aise hii to hamne kiyaa.

    Another one: (comment by one Anup Shukla)

    पंकज चिंता न करो जैसे ही मौका मिला तो तुम्हारे साथ भी इंसाफ होगा.तब नहीं रोक पायेंगे तुम्हारे मित्र.
    Pankaj chintaa na karo jaise hii maukaa milaa to tumhaare saath bhii insaaf hogaa. tab nahiiN rok paayeNge tumhaare mitr.

    And this one:
    दुकान वाला बोला आजाओ काम करने को काम करने वालो की में क़द्र करता हु समीर ने कहा जैसे ही मौका मिला भाग के आजाऊंगा...
    dukaan vaalaa bolaa aajaao kaam karne ko kaam karne vaaloN kii meN qadr kartaa huuN, Samiir ne kahaa jaise hii maukaa milaa bhaag ke aajaauuNgaa...
    (Shanti Purohit)

    And here:

    लेकिन जैसे ही समय मिला तो अपना बोरी बिस्तर उठाकर हिमालय भ्रमण में लम्बी पद यात्रा पर निकल जाऊँगा lekin jaise hii samay milaa to apnaa borii bistar uThaakar himaalay bhramaNR meN lambii pad-yaatraa par nikal jaauuNgaa. (Sandeep Panwar, N. Delhi)

    Here too:

    हाल ही में हुई एक बातचीत में फरहत ने बताया कि जैसे ही मौका मिला वे एक बार फिर इस शहर में आना चाहेंगे. haal hii meN huii ek baatchiit meN Farhat ne bataayaa ki jaise hii maukaa milaa ve ek baar phir is shahr meN aanaa chaaheNge. (Kumar Mukesh, Kaithal)

    How about this:

    जिस दिन पता चला तो चौपाल पर नहीं दिखूंगा. jis din pataa chalaa to chaupaal par nahiiN dikhuuNgaa. (a forum)

    This sentence, although in the second clause there is no explicit future tense, is also about future:

    जिस दिन समय मिला सब कुछ कर लेना चाहता हूँ |jis din samay milaa sab kuchh kar lenaa chaahtaa huuN. (comment by Shankar Phulara, Delhi/Uttarakhand).

    Finally, the sentence below, however not being exactly representative of future expression by a past tense, it still seems to be an example of going against the grammar rule of the same tense after "jaise hii""

    जैसे ही मौका मिला, ये घोटाले को अंजाम दे डालते हैंjaise hii maukaa milaa, ye ghoTaale ko anjaam de Daalte haiN.
    (Ravikant Prasad, Muzaffarpur)

    And this one:

    इन खबरों से ऊब कर वीरू ने जैसे ही टीवी बंद करने के [?लिए] रिमोट उठाया तो एक चैनल पर ब्रेकिंग न्‍यूज आ रही थी कि वैज्ञानिकों ने दावा किया है कि उन्‍हें चांद पर पानी मिल गया है।
    in khabroN se uub kar Viiruu ne jaise hii TV band karne ke [?li'e] rimoT [remote] uThaayaa to ek chainal (channel) par breking nyuuz [breaking news] aa rahii thii ki vaigyaanikoN ne daavaa kiyaa hai ki unheN chaaNd par paanii mil gayaa hai. (Himanshu, Agra).

    [I transcribed फ as [f] when applicable even if there was no dot].
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  9. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    unfortunately koii source diyaa nahiiN gayaa hai.


    maiN bhii is kii vajah jaannaa chaahtii huuN (agar koii vajah ho to), par kavitaa kumaar ne vajah ke baare meN kuchh nahiiN likhaa hai.

    aap kii baat sahiih hai, par grammar kii kitaaboN meN DhuuNDte DhuuNDte itnaa hii milaa.

    bilkul sahiih farmaate haiN aap.
    agar is mauzuu3 ke baare meN mujhe duusrii kitaaboN meN kuchh aur milaa to zaruur yahaaN likh duuNgii.

    grammar kii baat karnii hai, isii liye mujhe yuuN hii apnii taraf se kuchh likhnaa munaasib nahiiN lagtaa.
     
  10. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    marrish jii, hindii misaaleN likhne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle durust the? saath hii yih kahnaa durust nahiiN ho gaa kih Hindi-bhaashii isii tarH bolte haiN varnah vuh aisaa kyoN likh rahe haiN? aur agar vuh is tarH nahiiN bolte to in sab likhne vaaloN ne Ghalat grammar meN likhaa hai.

    vaise to tonyspeed SaaHib pahle bhii ek misaal de chuke haiN jo nah jaane kyoN radd kar dii ga'ii thii. lekin ab to marrish SaaHib ne muuslaa-dhaar baarish kii tarH hamaare liye misaal par misaal barsaa dii hai!

    natiijah yih hu'aa kih # post7 ke bar-3aks xaatir-xvaah pesh-raft hu'ii hai.
     
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    # post 8. marrish SaaHib, maiN aap kii kaavish par # post 11 meN izhaar kar chukaa huuN. yaqiin-an aap shukriyah ke mustaHiqq haiN aur ham sab aap ke iHsaan-mand haiN. kyaa yih mumkin hai kih har jumle ke saath aap net kaa rabt bhii faraaham kar deN. is se har ko'ii us jumle kaa mukammal siyaaq-o-sibaaq dekh sake gaa aur saath hii shaayad likhne vaale kaa naam bhii jaan sake gaa.
     
  13. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    maiN aap se ittifaaq kartii huuN, par agar ye bhii maaluum ho jaa'e ki kyaa grammarian logoN ne is baat kaa zikr kiyaa hai ki nahiiN, to aur achchhaa hai.
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ yih bhii ma3luum ho jaa'e gaa kih "grammarian-oN" ne kyaa likhaa hai. kahte haiN sabr kaa phal miiThaa hotaa hai!

    aap kii nazar meN sab se puraane aur afzal Hindi grammarian kaun-kaun haiN? un kii kitaaboN meN dekhne kii zaruurat hai.
     
  15. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You are welcome, I am glad myself that some progress has been made! What I needed was some inspiration and a weekend off. sapnachaandnii jii, yih misaaleN merii likhii hu'ii nahiiN haiN balkih duusre hindii bolne waaloN ke haathoN kii haiN. haaN ek aadh ko mujhe na'e sire se Taa'ip karnaa paRaa.
    QP SaaHib, it has taken too long to come up with any examples so I don't think I should be thanked for it. Someone should have done it many months before. I have edited the post, added links and author's names and locations and one more example at the end.
     
  16. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    jaantii huuN marrish jii, yahaaN un kaa zikr karne ke liye aap kaa shukriyaa. :)
     
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    mere xayaal meN in misaaloN kaa Alfaaz SaaHib ke likhe ga'e jumloN ko durust yaa Ghalat saabit karne se ko'ii bhii ta3alluq nahiiN hae aur yih isliye kih Alfaaz SaaHib ne apne jumle urduu meN hii likh diye the jabkih merii faraaham kardah misaaleN hindii kii haiN. agar Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumloN kii taHqiiq karnaa ho to aa'iye urduu kii kuchh misaaleN faraaham kar diijiye gaa. baaqii jahaaN tak hindii kaa ta3alluq hae - xwaah jinhoN ne tasdiiq kii thii kih sun_ne meN aisii misaaleN hiNdii meN 3aam murawwaj hotii haiN vuh xud hindii-go nahiiN the phir bhii un kii raa'e aksariyyat meN thii. bas itnii mushkil rahii thii kih aisii misaaleN talaash karnaa kaafii dushwaar hae aur kal tak hamaare saamne baHs karne ke liye kaafii mawaad nahiiN the. ab mere haath jo kuchh aisii misaaleN lag hii ga'iiN yih da3wah karnaa be-faa'idah ho gaa kih hindii meN is tarH kii tarkiibeN naa-paid haiN. yih kahnaa Haqiiqat ke bar-3aks ho gaa.

    maiN nahiiN samajhtaa kih yih grammar ke liHaaz se Ghalat hoN gii. yih mumkin hae kih shaayad jumle kii is tarH kii saaxt hindii meN ziyaadah musta3mal nah hotii ho, nahiiN to kam az kam likhne meN yih ziyaadah nah paa'ii jaatii ho, magar jabkih bolne meN (aur likhne meN bhii) aise jumle maujuud hii haiN aur yih taur-tariiqah sab ko to Ghalat nahiiN lagtaa, yih mas'alah Ghaalib_an grammar waaloN kii nazaroN se chhupaa rah gayaa thaa. aaxir meN to nah isii laRii meN nah hii pichchhlii meN urduu grammar kaa ise tasdiiq karne waalaa Hawaalah pesh aayaa. janaab-e-QP SaaHib, aap ne afzal hindii grammaroN kaa zikr kiyaa hae - vuh kaun kaun sii haiN is kaa mujhe 3ilm nahiiN magar kyaa jadiid-tariin kitaabeN ziyaadah kaam nahiiN aa'eN gii?
     
  18. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^
    pahlaa para.

    aap ba-jaa farmaa rahe haiN. mujhe chaahiye thaa likhnaa..

    kyaa aap ke xayaal meN yih misaaleN saabit kartii haiN kih Alfaaz SaaHib ke jumle Hindi meN bhii durust gine jaate haiN?

    duusraa para

    sapnaachaandii se us savaal ke piichhe ek xaas Hikmat-i-3amalii thii. lekin unhoN ne ko'ii javaab hii nahiiN diyaa..so vuh vahiiN dharii kii dharii rah ga'ii!:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  19. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    mere nazdiik maiN ne ko'ii aisii baat nahiiN kahii jis se sapnachaandnii SaaHibah ko raa'e zanii meN diqqat pesh aa sake, maiN ne to dar-asl ba-jaa'e aap ke sawaal kaa jawaab dene ke aap se 3arz kiyaa thaa kih is se pahle kih hindii grammar kii kitaaboN kii xaak chaanii jaa'e aise jumloN kii urduu grammar kii kitaaboN meN se Hawaalah pesh kiyaa jaa'e.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
  20. sapnachaandni Senior Member

    Iran, Tehran
    Persian (فارسی)
    afzal kaun-kaun haiN, ye kahnaa mushkil hai.

    har kitaab kii ek xuubii hotii hai, misaal ke taur par classification ke hisaab se, kavitaa kumaar kii "हिंदी व्याकरण एक नवीन दृष्टिकोण" bahut achchhii hai. par kabhii-kabhii inhoN ne kam vazaahat kii hai.

    Dr. hardev baahrii kii "व्यावहारिक हिंदी व्याकरण तथा रचना" bhii bahut achchhii kitaab hai. achchhii vazaahateN miltii haiN is meN, par sabhii baateN is meN shaamil nahiiN kii ga'ii haiN.

    kaamtaaprasaad guru kii "हिंदी व्याकरण" kii kuchh fasleN bhii achchhii haiN, par ye bhii mukammal nahiiN hai.

    mujhe do aur kitaaboN kaa ilm bhii hai, par un meN koii xaas baat nahiiN hai.

    in kitaaboN meN se kaamtaaprasaad guru kii "हिंदी व्याकरण" puraanii hai, par Dr. hardev baahrii aur kavitaa kumaar kii kitaabeN na'ii haiN.
     
  21. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Qavaa'id-i-Urdu, Maulana Abdul Haq-1914 (pp 262-263)

    "maazii mutlaq aise fi3l ko zaahir kartii hai jo zamaanah-i-guzashtah meN bilaa ta3ayyun-i-vaqt hu'aa magar 3alaavah is ke. muHaavare meN ba3z duusre maqaamaat par bhii isti3maal hotii hai, masal-an bajaa'e mustaqbil.

    vuh aayaa aur maiN chalaa. (jis vaqt vuh aa'e gaa maiN chal duuN gaa ya3nii us ke aate hii chal duuN gaa)..."
     
  22. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you so much. It is enough for me in order to be reassured that this manner of saying things is nothing new and not under English influence, as suggested once in the previous thread No. 1.
     
  23. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Kellogs dvaaraa likhii "A Grammar of the Hindi Language" (1876) meN yah vaakya hai. (pannaa 331)

    jis ne sansaar meN aa’e tumhaaraa naam nah liyaa tis ne amrit chhoR vish piyaa

    From "Hindi Grammar" by Edwin Greaves (1896/1921) p 278

    yadi kahiiN mil bhii gayaa to binaa bhakti sthir nahiiN rahtaa

    aur jab aisaa mat hu'aa to agyaan aa hii gayaa
     
  24. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Here is a couplet from Miir Taqi Miir (1723-1810)

    عشق ہمارے خیال پڑا ہے خواب گیا آرام گیا
    جی کا جانا ٹھہر گیا ہے صبح گیا یا شام گیا

    3ishq hamaare xayaal paRaa hai xvaab gayaa aaraam gayaa
    jii kaa jaanaa Thahar gayaa hai subH gayaa yaa shaam gayaa

    Engrossed is my mind with love; sleep is no more, comfort has gone
    The heart is waiting to go; it will be gone in the evening or at dawn
     
  25. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    My gratitude for this clear-cut example of past for future, from this author especially.
     

Share This Page