Urdu, Hindi: Pronunciation of vaaqaii, vakaii

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by tonyspeed, Dec 24, 2012.

  1. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Defined in Platts as P واقعي wāqěʻī (fr. A. wāqěʻ), adj. Real, actual, true;—right, proper, due;—adv. In fact, really, truly, verily, certainly, actually, de facto.

    Is this word always pronounced vaaqaii ? I seem to have heard someone pronounce it vaaqyaa or something like that.

    Are there alternate pronunciations?
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    You might be thinking of vaaqi3ah/incident.

    The word under discussion is pronounced more or less vaaqi3ii, with the 3 ranging from an a sound to the actual 3.
  3. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Maybe the times I have heard this, the person involved is confusing the two words. I guess that is possible.

    But is that first 'i' supposed to be there? You wrote vaaqi3ii.
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    In Urdu spelling, the i is there, if the short vowels are indicated.
  5. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Regarding the pronunciation, not the spelling, Platts SaaHib is right in having had indicated the short [e], this is how I pronounce this word. The explanation by QP is of course valid as per 3.

    Edit: I forgot to add that this applies to Urdu; when/if this word is used in Hindi, the pronunciaiton may vary.
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2012
  6. greatbear Senior Member

    India - Hindi & English
    The word is pronounced as "vaaqaii" or "vaakaii" (indeed) in Hindi. "vaakyaa" (incident) is a completely different thing altogether, and I don't see how can any speaker confuse between the two.
  7. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Although the meanings are different, the two words are etymologically connected though. Maybe the person was saying wāqěʻ
  8. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    waaqi3ah and waaqi3ii are indeed related semantically also. waaqi3ah meaning an incident, or something that actually happened, implying reality. I know waaqi3ah is now used in the sense of a story, like qissah, but the meaning implies a true story. Idiomatically you may find "waaqi3ah kuchh yuuN hai ..." for "In reality it is ...". So waaqi3ii (indeed, real) is just an extension of waaqi3ah.
  9. greatbear Senior Member

    India - Hindi & English
    Thanks a lot for the extra info, UM: I never thought about this semantic connection before.
  10. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    No, it's definately vakaii. The person uses it all of the time, but always the same strange pronunciation.
  11. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    I feel I also have heard people say vaakii in regular speech and not just vaakaii or vaaqa'ii.
  12. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It appears that I'm left out alone with the pronunciation of short [e] as in wāqěʻī...
  13. kaushalsingh

    kaushalsingh New Member

    I have heard people saying vakaii for implying something that is in reality,or in english as we say 'actually'!
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No, you are not alone. This is the pronunciation in Urdu. All I meant to say was that it is written as vaaqi3ii in Urdu. The ě sound is the same as the modern pronunciation of the izaafat, which is indicated with a zer (-i-) in writing.
  15. UrduMedium Senior Member

    United States
    Urdu (Karachi)
    ^ I Agree. We need a way to transcribe the short e sound between i and e.
  16. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for reassuring me :).
  17. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    That's interesting, it seems like a short-cut. I don't remember having heard something like this from native speakers though.
  18. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    This previous thread which focussed on واقع, that is not precisely the word which has been discussed here, but its core form, might be useful. There are references to Hindi and to Devanagari, that is why this link is considered by me to be justified.

  19. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    I finally found more evidence of the existence of this pronunciation variant. In, Aspects of Hindi Phonology Manjari Ohala states on page 47 "[wakəya] (PA) 'in reality'". Her maiden name is Agrawal and in the intro she states she "is a third generation native speaker of Standard Hindi". I am assuming this means she is a Delhi Punjabi whose family migrated from Pakistan after partition. This is interesting indeed since the other speaker who the thread is about is also a mother tongue Punjabi speaker. The fact that Ohala seems to be ignorant of the real spelling is also surprising.
  20. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    I as a Punjabi speaker have never heard "vaaqi3ah" (vaakeya..in Punjabi) pronounced as "wakəya". In fact "vaaqi3ah" does n't mean "in reality".
  21. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Maybe it's dialectal?
  22. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^Do you think "a" is used for a long "aa" [a:]?
  23. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    If you are referring to Manjari Ohala's transcription scheme, I am pretty sure it is, as "ə" is used for the "short" one. It seems, linguists are now increasingly analyzing the vowel length as a secondary feature in synchronic Urdu-Hindi phonetics, subordinate to vowel quality.
  24. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yes, indeed my question was about this word [wakəya] and thanks for the explanation! I wish I knew what synchronic phonetics refers to but nevertheless I don't have any qualms with any theory or practice linguists follow.

    If I understood properly what Manjari Ohala meant, it is [wa:kəya:] in IPA. Then, I am not familiar with this pronunciation, especially for "in reality". It must be some misunderstanding. She or he says it is for Hindi and tonyspeed SaaHib typed (PA) which I also don't understand what it stands for, but as debated in this thread, there are two words: waaqi3ah and waaqi3ii. In post no. 12 I gave the Urdu pronunciation (Standard) as wāqěʻī for the latter (sorry for mixing transliteration systems) and this word only would mean "in reality" whilst the former, wāqěʻa doesn't mean that. In Hindi there is the lengthening of the final vowel to -aa and change from q to k so Manjari Ohala's is quite close to wāqěʻa. I leave the matter of v/w aside.
  25. Dib Senior Member

    Bengali (India)
    "Synchronic" as in reference to the current state of the language, as opposed to "diachronic" referring to the historic stages of the language.
  26. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^ That's clear, thanks! Adding to the previous one, the person Tonyspeed heard saying vaakiyaa (or anything to this extent) and attaching the meaning of "in reality" seems indeed to have been confirmed by M. Ohala. I would be wary though of taking for granted that it means "in reality" in the current state of Hindi language. An instant online search produced this in the first place (14 hrs. ago - quite contemporary) (I can't help it's all about Modi in India these days):

    अगर मोदी प्रधानमंत्री नही बना तो क्या वाकई मे वो चाय बेचेगा? agar Modi pradhaanmaNtrii nahii(N) banaa to kyaa vaakaii me(N) vo chaay bechegaa?

    In Urdu it is also said with meNat times but I think it is redundant actually.

    So I don't believe वाकई can be transcribed or transliterated as having an -a at the end and retain its meaning. But to err is human!

  27. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
  28. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you very much. Now that we know what it stands for we can conclude that some Hindi speakers take Urdu waaqi3ii to be waa3iyah but I have another theory that it is perhaps PAU waaqi3_an which is written واقعاً waaw alif qaaf 3ayn alif tanwiin in other words w-a-q-i-3-aa-n but the final "n" is somehow not pronounced by some Hindi speakers and alif was taken for a long -aa which is not the case here. It means "in reality" though, that's why this suggestion.

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