Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi: ways of evoking God/god.

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by marrish, Feb 23, 2013.

  1. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I decided to open a discussion with the abovementioned slashed title as the outcome of a question raised in another thread (OMG! Your hair is so beautiful!):

    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2583871&page=2&p=13036961#post13036961

    Let us focus on the ways to express this OMG (Oh my God!) in Urdu, Hindi and Punjabi so that we might have an overview of the situations for those languages, respectively. Somehow, I presume that Urdu is at least not an underdog in this very aspect.

    greatbear has compared Hindi with Urdu and has come to the following conclusion:

    To begin with, QP SaaHib pointed out in that thread that the vocative particle for Hindi was ''he'' while Urdu uses the word of Persian origins ''ai''. Let me share one of the Urdu expressions which uses yet another particle: yaa (mere) rabb!

    Edit: TS SaaHib has used yet another particle for Hindi in that thread:
    haay rabba!
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2013
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    It would be good to see first the variety in Hindi speech when one speaks to God so that Urdu speakers can gauge the challenge they are up against.
     
  3. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    प्रभु, भगवान, ईश्वर, परमेश्वर, देव/देवा, देवता, देवी, रब, ख़ुदा, परमआत्मा. For starters. Are we including names here? Because there is not space to list names. Then there are Sanskrit chants of which I am unfamiliar.
     
  4. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    TS SaaHib, everything is good. I know there are laakhoN Gods in the Hindu pantheon which may have a connection with the language but I don't think all of them have a name and that their name is evoked when one reminds oneself of God. Everything is good. By the way, it is परमात्मा, written together according to the rules of the Skt. saMdhi. Also, it is very nice of you that you have placed the dot under the kh in xudaa!
     
  5. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Re. प्रभु. Isn't the vocative form prabho? I'm not sure.
     
  6. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    ^ The vocative form is also "prabhu".

    Besides the ones listed already by tonyspeed, also "allah", "parvardigaar", "raam", "kuldev", "krishn(aa)", "jagdambaa", "ambaa" ("ambe" in vocative), "maaN", "maalik", "ishTdev(taa)/ishTdevii", and so on - all of these are very common. I am not even going into the many other specific names from the Hindu pantheon - many of the God names from there are used in speech. I guess more than a dozen names are now already listed, which should suffice for starting - please note that tonyspeed and I have only noted down here common, very common names used for God in Hindi. Nor have I listed metaphoric names given to God like "aanand-daataa", etc., of which kind there are many (attributing a quality or power or characteristic to God and then deriving a name); nor other divinities like Ganga ("he gaNge", "he narmade", etc.).
     
  7. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Having got the Hindi words it is time to draw a sketch of the situation for Urdu. Below you will find a few manners of evoking God/god, which are used very frequently. For your enjoyment as well as for the sake of providing literary examples, ''اسناد asnaad'' (for more info on this, cf. this thread), I thought it would be nice to post those words as used by the Urdu poets. Here you are:

    میرے مولا میرے داتا
    mere maulaa mere
    daataa
    ہر اِک کا ہے تجھ سے ناتا
    har ik kaa hai tujh se naataa
    ***
    وہ سب کا پالن ہارا ہے یہ کنبہ اُسی کا سارا ہے
    vuh sab kaa paalan-haaraa hai yih kunbah usii kaa saaraa hai
    یہ پیلے ہیں یا کالے ہیں یہ پیار سے اُسی نے پالے ہیں
    yih piile haiN yaa kaale haiN yih pyaar se usii ne pale haiN
    ***
    پتھر کی مورتوں میں سمجھا ہے تو خدا ہے
    patthar kii muuratoN meN samjhaa hai tuu xudaa hai
    خاکِ وطن کا مجھ کو ہر ذرہ دیوتا ہے
    xaak-e-vatan kaa mujh ko har zarrah devtaa hai
    ***​
    Another one, very nice, on devtaa:


    آج شکستہ پڑا ہوں بت کی طرح
    aaj shikastah paRaa huuN but kii tarH
    میں دیوتا تھا کبھی ایک دیوداسی کا
    maiN devtaa thaa kabhii ek devdaasii kaa
    ***
    اے خدا، شکوۂ اربابِ وفا بھی سن لے
    ai xudaa
    , shikvah-e-arbaab-e-vafaa bhii sun le
    خوگرِ حمد سے تھوڑا سا گلہ بھی سن لے
    xuugar-e-Hamd se thoRaa saa gilah bhii sun le
    تشنگی تشنگی، ارے توبہ، قطرے قطرے کو ہم ترستے ہیں
    tishnagii tishnagii, are taubah, qatre qatre ko ham tarase haiN
    اے خداوندِ کوثر و تسنیم، تیرے بادل کہاں برستے ہیں
    ai xudaavand-e-kausar-o-tasniim, tere baadal kahaaN baraste haiN
    ***
    لب پہ آتی ہے دعا بن کے تمنا میری
    lab pih aatii hai du3aa ban ke tamanaa merii
    زندگی شمع کی صورت ہو خدایا میری
    zindagii sham3 kii suurat ho xudaayaa merii
    ***
    خداوندا​ یہ تیرے سادہ دل بندے کدھر جائیں
    xudaavandaa yih tere saadah-dil bande kidhar jaa’eN
    کہ درویشی بھی عیّاری ہے سلطانی بھی عیّاری
    kih darveshii bhii 3ayyaarii hai sultaanii bhii 3ayyaarii
    ***
    اِک فرصتِ گناہ ملی وہ بھی چار دن
    ik furSat-i-gunaah milii vuh bhii chaar din
    دیکھے ہیں ہم نے حوصلے پروردگار کے
    dekhe haiN ham ne Hausale parvardigaar ke
    ***
    ہے بے کسوں کو تیرا سہارا
    hai be-kasoN ko teraa sahaaraa
    بندہ نوازا! پروردگارا!۔
    bandah-navaazaa! parvardigaaraa!
    ***
    قربانِ صنعتِ قلمِ آفریدگار
    qurbaan-e-san3at-e-qalam-e-
    aafriidgaar
    تھی ہر ورق پہ صنعتِ ترصیعِ کردگار
    thii har varaq pih san3at-e-tarsii3-e-kardgaar
    ***
    کس نے ٹھنڈا کیا آتش کدۂ ایراں کو
    kis ne ThanDaa kiyaa aatash-kadah-e-iiraaN ko
    کس نے پھر زندہ کیا تذکرۂ یزداں کو
    kis ne phir zindah kiyaa tazkirah-e-
    yazdaaN ko
    ***
    مِرے اللہ برائی سے بچانا مجھ کو
    mire Allah
    buraa’ii se bachaanaa mujh ko
    نیک جو راہ ہو اُس پہ چلانا مجھ کو
    nek jo raah ho us rah pih chalaanaa mujh ko

    ***
    الٰہی، کیسی کیسی صورتیں تو نے بنائی ہیں
    ilaahii, kaisii kaisii suurateN tuu ne banaa’ii haiN
    کہ ہر صورت کلیجے کو لگا لینے کے قابل ہے
    kih har suurat kaleje ko lagaa lene ke qaabil hai

    ***
    نہیں جاتی کسی صورت پریشانی نہیں جاتی
    nahiiN jaatii kisii suurat pareshaanii nahiiN jaatii
    الٰہی! میرے دل کی خانہ ویرانی نہیں جاتی!۔
    ilaahii! mere dil kii xaanah-viiraanii nahiiN jaatii
    ***
    دنیا کی محفلوں سے اُکتا گیا ہوں یا رب
    dunyaa kii maHfiloN se uktaa gayaa huuN
    yaa rabb
    کیا لطف انجمن کا جب دل ہی بجھ گیا ہو!۔
    kyaa lutf anjuman kaa jab dil hii bujh gayaa ho!
    ***
    رب کا شکر ادا کر بھائی
    rabb kaa shukr adaa kar bha’ii
    جس نے ہماری گائے بنائی
    jis ne hamaarii gaa’e banaa’ii
    اُس مالک کو کیوں نہ پکاریں
    us
    maalik ko kyoN nah pukaareN
    جس نے پلائیں دودھ کی دھارئیں
    jis ne pilaa’iiN duudh kii dhaareN

    ***
    او میرے مالک اور عرش والے
    o mere maalik aur 3arsh vaale
    جلوے ہیں تیرے سب سے نرالے
    jalve haiN tere sab se niraale
    ***
    اگر سرزد کوئی بھولے سے نیکی ہو گئی مجھ سے
    agar sarzad ko’ii bhuule se nekii ho ga’ii mujh se
    قُبول اُس کو کرے مولا، جزا مانگوں تو میں کافر
    qubuul us ko kare
    maulaa, jazaa maaNguuN to maiN kaafir
    ***
    کوئی آیا ہے زلفیں بکھیرے
    ko’ii aayaa hai zulfeN bakhere
    میرے مولا دہائی دہائی
    mere maulaa duhaa’ii duhaa’ii
    ***
    اے خالق تیرے جلوے کا ہوتا ہے نور زمانے میں
    ai xaaliq
    tere jalve kaa hotaa hai nuur zamaane meN
    تو بستا ہے ہر بستی میں تو رہتا ہے ویرانے میں
    tuu bastaa hai har bastii meN tuu rahtaa hai viiraane meN
    ***
    تیرے حکم سے جو ہوا چلی تو چٹک کے بولی کلی کلی
    tere Hukm se jo havaa chalii to chaTak ke bolii kalii kalii
    ہے کریم تو رحیم تو تیری شان جل جلالہ
    hai
    kariim tuu raHiim tuu terii shaan jalla jalaaluhuu
    ***
    پوچھا کسی نے یہ، کسی کامل فقیر سے
    puuchhaa kisii ne yih, kisii kaamil faqiir se
    یہ مہر و ماہ حق نے بنائے ہیں کاہے کے
    yih mihr-o-maah
    Haqq ne banaa’e haiN kaahe ke
    وہ سن کے بولا، بابا خدا تجھ کو خیر دے
    vuh sun ke bola, baabaa xudaa tujh ko xair de
    ہم تو نہ چانْد سمجھے نہ سورج ہیں جانتے
    ham to nah chaaNd samjhe nah suuraj haiN jaante
    بابا! ہمیں تو یہ نظر آتی ہیں روٹیاں!۔
    baabaa! hameN to yih nazar aatii haiN roTiyaaN!

    ***
    ہم سے پہلے تھا عجب تیرے جہاں کا منظر
    ham se pahle thaa 3ajab tere jahaaN kaa manzar
    کہیں مسجود تھے پتھر کہیں معبود شجر
    kahiiN masjuud the patthar kahiiN
    ma3buud shajar
    ***
    یہ صوفی کی طریقت تھی یا مجذوبی کی حالت تھی!۔
    yih suufii kii tariiqat thii yaa majzuubii kii Haalat thii!
    عبادت سے پرے کرتا رہا وہ وردِ ہُو برسوں
    3ibaadat se pare kartaa rahaa vuh vird-i-huu barsoN
    ***
    گلۂ جفائےوفانما، کہ حرم کو اہل حرم سے ہے
    gilah-e-jafaa-e-vafaa numaa, kih Haram ko ahl-e-Haram se hai
    کسی بتکدے میں بیاں کروں، تو کہے صنم بھی ہری ہری
    kisii but-kade meN bayaaN karuuN, to kahe sanam bhii, "Hari Hari"

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2013
  8. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    I feel like I should add shiSHTikartaa and banaanewaalaa to the list as well.
     
  9. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Who were the authors of these poems? I feel that the used of dev and hari have eliminated them from the ranks of "Urdu" poets and have transfered them over to
    some mixed form of language that existed prior to the creation of Modern Urdu. Some works previous to the 20th century fall into the common body of work that is Hindi/Urdu.

    Are there people in Pakistan that commonly say "ai, devtaa meraa!" or "hari hari!" (a name of Krishna and Vishnu)?
     
  10. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    ^The author of the last one is Allama Iqbal.
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Before I respond to your queries tonyspeed SaaHib, it is only fair that we should thank marrish SaaHib for his efforts in searching for and posting a lengthy piece consisting of Urdu poetry that demonstrates usage of words not only for God but also words for evoking God. I don't think this would have been an easy task and no doubt a very time consuming one at that, compared with merely producing a list of words.

    The couplets that you have quoted are from a work entitled "BaaNg-i-daraa" by Allamah Muhammad Iqbal (1877-1938). The first couplet comes from his "nazm" called "Nayaa Shivaalah" (The New Temple) which opens with the lines..

    sach kah duuN ai barhaman gar tuu buraa nah maane
    tere sanam-kadoN ke but ho gaye puraane

    From what I have been able to find out, this poem had been written by the end of 1905, a year after writing "saare jahaaN se achchhaa HindustaaN hamaaraa" (the latter was originally called "hamaaraa des"*). Iqbal went through a number of phases in his poetry and this poem reflects the period when "Indian Nationalism" was foremost in his mind. The second couplet comes again from his Urdu collection called "BaaNg-i-daraa" and the poem is entitled "maiN aur tuu". Iqbal's other Urdu works (books) in Urdu are "Baal-i-Jibriil", "Zarb-i-Kaliim" and "ArmaGhaan-i-Hijaaz".

    You will see from the titles of these works that his poetry was in Urdu. All his work is available on the net (including his Persian and English works). His Urdu is as modern as it comes and he was a student of DaaGh Dihlavii, known as an authority on the language, who famously said..

    Urdu hai jis kaa naam, hamiiN jaante haiN daaGh
    HindustaaN meN dhuum hamaarii zabaaN kii hai

    If you think, 1905 is too far back, Khushi Muhammad Naazir (1869-1944) wrote the famous "Jogii" masterpiece in which he says..

    "Har utraa hai har jaa Jogii"

    marrish SaaHib has quoted Faraz Ahmed Faraz (1931-2008) who wrote..

    aaj shikastah paRaa huuN but kii tarah
    maiN devtaa thaa kabhii ek dev-daasii kaa

    Urdu speaking people in Pakistan, India and elsewhere in the world, would commonly say "ai devtaa mere" or more often "ai mere devtaa"! They would and do also say "Hari Hari". Perhaps, we could be taken for an equally pleasant journey through Hindi poetry, where Hindi poets display the usage of rab, Allah and xudaa etc?

    * Here is this poem in his own hand writing showing the date as 1904

    http://www.chapatimystery.com/archives/univercity/examining_iqbal.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2013
  12. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    I don't think that "daataa", "devtaa", "paalan-haaraa" and "harii" could be counted among Urdu: would a common Muslim from Pakistan evoke "Hari"? I very much doubt so.
    Meanwhile, no one says "ae mere devtaa" even in Hindi, that's a ridiculous proposition (maybe that points to what tonyspeed has already pointed out - that these words aren't used in common Urdu speech): one does say "devaa re devaa" (not only in the hymn, but a common expression in esp. Maharashtra) or "o devaa-devaa". "devtaa" is hardly used in addressing God directly.

    By the way, thanks to marrish, we have an even more burgeoning list in Hindi: words like "maulaa", etc., which are very much a part and parcel of Hindi (not just literature, but common man's speech - which is what I was referring to in particular when I said there are not that many names in Urdu for referring to God; though even counting the literature examples above, there's still not enough variety in Urdu).

    Meanwhile, going along tonyspeed's "srshTikartaa/-rachetaa" lines, there are even more in Hindi: "vishwkarmaa", just "rachetaa", "jeevandaataa", "jagadguruu", "aachaary", etc. (The latter two also mean "teacher"; owing to central emphasis on knowledge and learning in Hindu thought, God is often taken to be the "supreme teacher", and the teacher/mentor as God/God's incarnation.)
     
  13. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    I had a feeling we would end up having rather shallow responses to this thread for my inclusion of some words for God. I didn't realise only Muslims from Pakistan spoke Urdu. As has been discussed elsewhere, Urdu is not, repeat, not linked to any particular faith. As religion and Pakistan have been brought into the discussion unnecessarily, amongst the nearly 1.5 billion people in both India and Pakistan, aren't there any non-Muslims who speak Urdu and in their daily lives use "devtaa" and "hari"? Surely there must be at least some Hindus amongst this huge number who are Urdu speakers? By the logic being offered, one could say that Allah, xudaa, parvardigaar etc. would only be uttered by Urdu/Muslim speakers because these words are linked to the Muslim faith!

    paalan-haaraa and daataa are not linked to any particular faith. If one can have lakaR-haaraa in Urdu, why can't we have "paalan-haaraa"? Here is another example, again from Faraz (Faraaz).

    ہم پالنہار ہیں پھولوں کے
    ہم خوشبو کے رکھوالے ہیں
    ham paalan-haar haiN phuuloN ke
    ham xush-buu ke rakhvaale haiN

    داتا daataa is a word well known to Urdu speakers. Here are a couple of examples from Urdu prose:

    داتا بھگوان کی آپ پر کرپا رہے۔ ٹھیک بات آپ نے فرمائی۔
    daataa bhagvaan kii aap par kirpaa rahe. Thiik baat aap ne farmaa’ii (Khursheed Bahuu- 1900)

    اے موہن! چلو سیدھے سیالکوٹ چلیں۔ ممکن ہے داتا بھگوان ہمیں جیتے جاگتے واپس لے آئے۔
    ai Mohan! chalo siidhe Sialkot chaleN..mumkin hai data bhagvaan hameN jiite jaagte..vaapas le aa’e.
    (Hikaayaat-e-Punjab 1962)

    Krishan Chander (1914-1977) was a renowned novelist and short story writer. One of his masterpieces is called “ann-daataa”.

    Finally, here is an example for “ai mere devtaa” from Hindi.

    ऐ मेरे जहान के देवता, ये तेरा वितान अजीब है
    तेरी वेदना में है रौशनी, तेरी आनबान अजीब है
    प्रकाश विवेक

    Producing lists of words to show variety is one thing. But quoting the top writers in the language is quite another matter! Anyone can provide long lists of names.
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2013
  14. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    ^ As Hindi speakers, we often use "allah" in particular, including myself, even though many of us are not Muslims: no one is suggesting that languages are necessarily linked with faith - that is a conclusion that you have arrived at somehow. Further argument will take us outside the scope of this forum, so I will desist; the only thing left to say is that all your examples do not change the fact that not many Muslims of Pakistan would evoke Hari in their speech. If UM were here and were to agree to conduct a FB poll, we would know the statistics as well ...

    As for your example, "Ae mere jahaaN ke devtaa" is something completely different from "Ae mere devtaa": God can even be described as "ae mere man ke raajaa", which does not mean that one usually addresses the king as "ae raajaa" (or that "raajaa" means God :D). Also, this discussion, as far as I'm concerned, is about long lists of names: i.e., about what Urdu speakers actually use in their day-to-day life to evoke God. Novelists and poets will always sit with thesauri and keep using all the synonyms they can find: you will find the whole gamut in literature; did we ever dispute that?
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    What was the purpose behind this thread? To answer the following supposition but widened to cover both God and god.
    I then suggested that Hindi speakers should demonstrate the variety in Hindi. Posts 3 and 6 were the outcome giving a list of names for evoking God amongst which were included Allah and parvardigaar. No objection was raised regarding this by Urdu speakers since a language is not or at least should not be tied to a particular faith community. The discussion was about evoking God in Urdu and Hindi, not about Hindus and Muslims. There are bound to be some Hindi speakers who are Muslims and Christians who would use Allah, xudaa, xudaavand, parvaridgaar and the like in their normal day to day life. Even if they were n't Muslims or Christians, these words could form part of their idiomatic usage like “uff xudaayaa”, just as an atheist might exclaim, "Jesus Christ"!

    Then marrish SaaHib responded (post 7) with a detailed post in which he included more than twenty names of God couched in some sublime Urdu poetry. As a consequence, several questions were raised by TS in post 9
    All these questions were answered by me in post 11. Frankly, I could not understand the logic behind the last question, bearing in mind that we are discussing languages and not nationalities. What the hell has Pakistan got to do with this? Are there no Urdu speakers in India? At least I think there are Urdu speakers in India, in large numbers and probably in greater numbers than native Urdu speakers in Pakistan!

    Now, if this was n’t bad enough, to make matters worse the concept of religion is fused with nationality and thrust upon us in the form of post 12.
    Let us go to the beginning of the thread. Was one of the parameters “Pakistan”? No! Was one of the parameters “Muslims in Pakistan”? No! Surely, the premise was to demonstrate the diverse ways in which God is evoked in Urdu. What has a common Muslim from Pakistan got to do with evoking devtaa or hari? Does a common Hindu from anywhere on the planet, let alone India, get up in the morning with Allah, xudaa, parvardigaar etc on his/her lips? Very unlikely if not impossible. Urdu speakers who are Muslims and are from either India or Pakistan or elsewhere, they will no doubt not say Hari Hari. But the common Hindu who is a speaker of Urdu, from India, Pakistan or Mars would most likely have words like devtaa and Hari Hari on his/her lips. All this reminds me of the following couplet:

    zulm Urdu pih bhii hotaa hai aur is nisbat se
    log Urdu ko musalmaan samajh lete haiN

    Aqil Umanai

    Here is a Pakistani, a Hindu, speaking Urdu who not only evokes these gods but also makes them!! Take a look at the last video on the right hand side. As you can see from the link, this is only a few days old.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2013/03/130308_sairbeen_8_march_tim.shtml

    One thing that should not be forgotten is that whenever an Urdu speaker has Greek, Roman or Hindu Mythology in mind, he will almost always use the words devii and devtaa for goddess and god respectively.

    The word “baarii” (Creator) is a common word in Urdu for God. To add to marrish SaaHib’s poetry collection, here are two couplets from Isma’iil Merathi’s nazm “kisaan”.

    kar chukaa kisaan jab apnaa kaam
    phir xudaa se umiid-vaarii hai

    aafat-i-arzii-o-samaavii se
    hai nigah-baan to fazl-i-baarii hai
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2013
  16. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    He/she does, to your surprise. Many. Not just "Allah" properly to evoke God (and not just in some expression), but also in other terms like "insha-allah". If a common Muslim from Pakistan says Hari when evoking God, then that's news to me and a good one. Period.
     
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ I do not recall anyone saying that a common Muslim from Pakistan says Hari when evoking God. They certainly use the other "hari".

    yaa rab rasuul-i-paak kii khetii harii rahe
    sandal se maaNg bachchoN se godii bharii rahe

    Meer Anis(1802-1874)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2013
  18. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Yesterday I read a Hindi short story written by Pandey Bechan Sharma 'Ugra'. The short story is entitled ''खुदाराम KhudaRam'' - a very meaningful title, by the way!

    It spans only 13 pages. You can read the whole text here (23 Hindi kahaaniyaaN –Saahitya Academy (Academy of Literature).On a couple of pages I found a number of references to the recently discussed threads.

    Perhaps not meeting the additional criterion of Pakistan - that didn't exist at that time - but I thought I'd post it for QP and GB: a Muslim getting up every morning with Ram Ram on her lips!:

    इसलिए नहीं कि उस धर्म में कोई विशेषता नहीं है, बल्कि इसलिये कि मेरा और मेरे परिवार का हृदय मुसलमान धर्म के योग्य नहीं। अनन्त काल का हिन्दू-हृदय --- हिन्दू सभ्यता का पक्षपाती शान्त हृदय --- मुसलमानी रीति-नीति और सभ्यता का उपयोग करने में बिल्कुल अयोग्य साबित हुआ है। मेरी स्त्री नित्य प्रातःकाल ख़ुदा-ख़ुदा नहीं राम-राम जपती है। मैं मुसलमान रहकर क्या करूँगा ?

    islie nahiiN ki us dharm meN koii visheSHtaa nahiiN hai, balki isliye ki meraa aur mere parivaar kaa hriday musalmaan dharm ke yogya nahiiN. anant kaal kaa hindu-hriday---hinduu sabhyataa kaa pakSHpaatii shaant hriday—musalmaanii riiti-niiti aur sabhyataa kaa upyog karne meN bilkul ayogya saabit huaa hai. merii strii nitya praatah:kaal xudaa-xudaa nahiiN raam-raam japtii haiN. maiN musalmaan rahkar kyaa karuuNgaa?



    (Background: Inayat Ali is a second-generation Muslim whose father, a Hindu, was deemed ''mlechchh'' and forced by his community to renounce his faith and embrace Islam as a consequence of him having a Muslim lady servant who cooked his food and brought water from a well. Now his son wishes to convert to Hinduism.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
  19. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    Did we talk of converts or wannabe converts? Why don't you yourself ask such a question, rather, marrish? How many Muslims have you met who evoke Ram or Hari or even the more generic "iishvar"? Why to take the crutches of literature?
     
  20. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    So, you are saying that the examples given in post no. 7 are all irrelevant? OK, nice to know :)
     
  21. Gope Senior Member

    Chennai
    Tamil
    The vocative of प्रभु is प्रभो in Sanskrit.
     
  22. Dib Senior Member

    Germany
    Bengali (India)
    I also took a look at the linked thread, which had degenerated into open/thinly veiled name-calling, but I think, I have some relevant observation on this matter. First of all, I am talking about everyday spoken Hindi/Urdu - in the registers where there exist regional differences and to a limited extent "religional" differences, but the correlation with the formal Hindi-Urdu difference is not so clear. So my perceptions:

    1. The exclamations "he bhagvaan", "haay allaah", "haay rabbaa" (and English "oh God") are all fairly common in the speech that I have heard around me. Their regional distributions are different - "rabbaa" is relatively more common in Delhi (putatively due to Punjabi influence), but probably nonexistent in the Eastern parts; and bhagvaan and allaah have their own religious associations; but in my experience, neither is religiously exclusive, most likely correlating more with the speaker's attitude towards the other religion(s), and the backgrounds of their interlocutors.

    2. To me, these are normally expressions of seeking divine help, rather than expressions of gratitude; and thus express some amount of helplessness in an unfavourable situation. Typical example: "haay allaah, kyaa hogaa is laRke kaa!"

    3. When passing compliments, the only expression more or less current in my circle has been "maashaallaah" (sic.) (and English "touch wood" in Delhi), common among Muslims in general, but also used by Hindus, especially in the Western regions (Delhi, etc.) Those who do not use these, normally do not invoke God in their happy exclamations.

    4. After coming out of a difficult situation, the normal expressions of gratitude that I have heard are "shukar (sic.) hai" and English "thank God!"
     

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