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Urdu/Hindi: What language forms their basis?

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Qureshpor, Feb 25, 2013.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    On a few occasions in this forum it has been suggested that Hindi (in the sense of High Hindi, the national language of India) has its basis on vernaculars such as Khariboli/Khari Boli (KhaRii-Boli= KB) as well as Braj, Awadhi and possibly even Bhojpuri. My contention has been that the vernacular that has laid the foundation for both these languages is KB and not Braj or any other language. This thread would be a good place to bring forward evidence for whichever side of the argument you happen to accept. So please fire away!
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  2. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    "Everybody knows this much--that our Urdu language has emerged from Braj Bhasha. And Braj Bhasha is a purely Indian language. But it is not a language that came onto the world's stage along with India. It's not more than eight hundred years old, and the meadows of the Braj region are its native land."

    ĀB-E ḤAYĀT: Shaping the Canon of Urdu Poetry
    MUḤAMMAD ḤUSAIN ĀZĀD
     
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Thank you for the above Tony SaaHib. Before I respond to this, perhaps you could also post the language which forms the basis for High Hindi as well. Your post (2) seems to be contrary to what you have said in response to my suggestion that both Urdu and Hindi have their basis in KB.
     
  4. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    I was suprised myself.
     
  5. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Since we already have got one piece on Urdu's basis (sic!), let me offer an excerpt from the book ''Dialect Accent Features for Establishing Speaker Identity: A Case Study by Manisha Kulshresththa and Ramkumar Mathur which deals with the subject of this thread in great detail.

    Edit: perhaps it is 'prominence' which is missing. Also, maybe there are people who are interested in it, the word Mughal in careful Urdu should be muGhul, not muGhal, although I don't consider the latter wrong.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2013
  6. greatbear Senior Member

    India
    India - Hindi & English
    ^ Are we also talking of Standard Hindi? Classic case once again of confusing the point being discussed in order to muddle the argument.
     
  7. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    In what has proved to be a most eye-opening read, Encyclopaedic Dictionary of Urdu Literature by Abida Samiuddin says on page 124 in its article on Khari Boli:

    "From early times it was heavily influenced by Haryanvi, eastern Punjabi, and later on, by Braj Bhasha in order to assume the standard form of Urdu/Hindi"

    The truly interesting part of this article is that it also highlights some of the pronunciation differences between standard Hindi/Urdu and Khari Boli.
     
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A language may be influenced by a number of other languages. The point of this thread is to ascertain the vernacular upon which Urdu and Modern Hindi is based on. In other words, what is the language that laid the foundation of the languages that were to become Urdu and Modern Hindi? You have quoted the last sentence on page 124 but I would invite readers of this thread to read from page 120-124, the section which covers KB. The compiler of the encyclopaedia gives the views of two respected linguists, Ramvilas Sharma and Sunitikumar Chatterji. On page 122, second paragraph, first sentence she says..

    "No doubt Khari Boli is the basis of both Urdu and Hindi."

    http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=... Literature Abida Samiuddin khariboli&f=false
     
  9. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Re. the pronunciation differences between standard Urdu and Khari Boli: please keep in mind that from some point several centuries ago both languages, ie. Urdu and KB have been developing on their own so it is inevitable that there are bound to be some differences in pronunciation. The form of KB as it is spoken now as a vernacular is different from what formed the basis of Urdu, and later on, of Hindi, however it should be also kept in mind that Urdu ''refined'' certain pattern of speech and word forms of KB to suit its own, very frequently poetic purposes.
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Muhammad Hussain Azad (1830-1910) was many things amongst them being a prose writer and a poet but he was neither a linguist nor a scholar in this field. His error has been noted by scholars such as Shamsur Rahman Faruqi. As no one to date has produced any evidence to show that Modern Hindi's foundation language is Braj Bhasha, there is no point my giving excerpts from writings of various people in this field to prove that it was in fact KB and not BB. Believe you me, since I started this thread, I have been in search of appropriate material.
     

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