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Urdu: -jaat as suffix

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Cilquiestsuens, Dec 16, 2008.

  1. Cilquiestsuens Senior Member

    French
    Hello,

    I wanted to ask if you know of any rule on the use of these Farsi plurals in Urdu....

    I just remember two uses of it right now, in official parlance : shu'bah-jaat (departments) I think I have seen mehkamah-jaat also, same meaning. And there is also the official Urdu name of Northern Areas in PK shumaalii ilaaqah-jaat..

    Do you know which words can take these plurals and what are the rules ?
     
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    The only rule that I am familiar with is that the "jaat" plural is added when the base word ends with a haa-i-havvaz and is, I think, a concrete noun.

    Arabic: adviyah >>>>> adviyajaat (medicines: double plural)

    Persian: mevah* >>>>> mevajaat (fruits)

    But note bachchah >>>>bachchagaan
    ** (children)

    * These endings at one time had -g as their terminal letter, as indicated by the -aan plural ending. This in Arabic became jiim, hence jaat instead of plane -aat. I don't know why -gaan did n't change to -jaan!
     
  3. Koozagar Senior Member

    Urdu
    Masaalajaat
     
  4. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    Would these plurals be used in Urdu? I know them from Persian.
     
  5. Koozagar Senior Member

    Urdu
    They are used. Not in rozmara but surely in written language.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, as Koozagar Sahib has pointed out. For example, "bandagaan-i-Khudaa" (God's servants), bachchagaanah 'aadateN (Childish habbits).
     
  7. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    The rule works pretty well nearly all the time for Urdu but funnily exceptions may exist in Farsi itself, e.g. for سبزی sabzii the plural is سبزیجات sabziijaat!

    Here is another important example in Urdu: حوالہ Hawaalah (reference, allusion; charge, care, custody; possession; consignment ; etc.) takes the plural حوالجات Hawaalajaat and not حوالات Hawaalaat = lockup, prison, jail!

    I think for ادویہ adwiyah the more frequent plural used is ادویات adwiyaat.

    .. and yes, in Pahlavi it was originally mewag (for mewah ميوه) and wachchag (for bachchah بچہ)

    Well, as for the use of the words mewajaat and bachchagaan in Urdu, I’m sure nobody would throw anything at you if you happen to use them (in formal situations) but the use of the Prakrit plural forms (respectively, mewe میوے and bachche بچے) are far more common. Similarly سبزیجات sabziijaat is not really used in common Urdu though in certain Urduphone households I’ve heard it!
     
  8. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    bachkaanah 3aadaat says something to you?
     
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    bachkaanah? Surely "bachchagaanah"!

    It does n't matter if its "3aadateN" or "3aadaat".



     
  10. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    What happens to the gender of these plurals?
     
  11. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Gender, as per the singular.

    baaGh (m) baaGhaat (m)

    tarmiim (f) [amendment] tarmiimaat (f)
     
  12. Koozagar Senior Member

    Urdu
    There is also Akhrajaat. Plural for kharcha=expense
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    No, this would not fall in the -jaat suffix category. It is an Arabic plural but I think it might be wrongly formed.
     
  14. Koozagar Senior Member

    Urdu
    Good to know. Let's hear what others have to say. Is Akhrajaat wrongly formed?
     
  15. eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    To the best of my knowledge اخراجات is correctly formed in Arabic and is also used in Persian to mean "expenses" (plural of اخراج). However it does not count as a word formed with the -jaat plural because the jiim is part of the word itself! Thus it's not akhraa + jaat (as in sabzi + jaat) but rather akhraaj + aat, which is a standard Arabic plural rather than -jaat from Persian.
     
  16. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Allow me to explain my reservations.

    As you will no doubt be aware, Arabic has a number of verb patterns from which verbal nouns are derived. Pattern I is a little awkward in the sense that there is no particular pattern for the verbal noun. II onwards, there are distinct patters.

    Pattern I (Kharaja)'s noun is Khuruuj according to Hans Wehr's Arabic English dictionary. Kharj is also given but for some reason not with the Pattern I entry. It's plural is provided as Khuruujaat. I assume that Khuruuj probably has the same plural.

    Pattern II's noun is taKhriij (from Kharraja). Pattern IV's is IKhraaj (from Akhraja) with a plural IKraajaat, I presume. So, you can see that "aKhraajaat" has not come in anywhere. Could it be a corruption of Ikhraajaat?
     
  17. eskandar Moderator

    English (US)
    Oh, now I understand why you suggested it might be wrongly formed. I was thinking the issue was in the plural ending, whereas what you're saying is that it should be ikhraajaat not akhraajaat, correct? I think you are probably right that akhraajaat is a corruption of ikhraajaat; I can't think of other examples, but I feel like I've seen similar borrowings from Arabic/Persian into Urdu with seemingly arbitrary vowel changes like that.
     
  18. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    Was wondering about this -jaat suffix. I have seen it typically in masaalajaat (maSaalaH jaat) and saw it here in the forums on baqaayaa jaat meaning the remainder, which is apparently not a correct usage.

    What other words would it be common to use with? What exactly does it mean? Is it from Persian?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  19. marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    It is indeed from Persian, lcfatima SaaHibah, as you rightly presume. It is a marker of the plural number which is used just in some situations, where normally the -aat suffix would be used, with which you are of course familiar. The requirement of the interceding -j- is a phonetic necessity when the noun which has to be put in plural ends with a (silent) -h، like in Suubah صوبہ (a province), plural Suube صوبے or صوبہ جات Suubah-jaat.


    In the meanwhile I've found a thread where the topic is different but there are some original digressions worthy of mentioning:
    http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1210413
    thaana-jaat, Theka-jaat, khaata-jaat!
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2013
  20. lcfatima Senior Member

    In a teapot
    English USA
    Thanks, somehow I missed the -jaat thread. Thanks.
     

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