Urdu: ko'ii x bhii vs ko'ii bhii x

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by Qureshpor, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Friends,

    How would you differentiate between...

    1) اِس سے مراد کوئی گھوڑا بھی تو ہو سکتا ہے

    2) اِس سے مراد کوئی بھی گھوڑا تو ہو سکتا ہے

    Which form is preferable from the perspective of grammatical accuracy?

    Thanking you in advance.
     
  2. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    For me these sentences are not identical in meaning and both are grammatically sound.
     
  3. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    How would you articulate the difference?
     
  4. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Perhaps it would be more profitable to have the views of someone else before. I will wait with it.
     
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Yes, it would be good to wait and see if Alfaaz SaaHib or Faylasoof SaaHib can throw some light on this.
     
  6. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    I think I would agree with marrish SaaHib, but won't go into details. Let's wait for Faylasoof, Qureshpor, marrish SaaHibaan (or other members), who can provide detailed answers and explanations in the light of grammar!
     
  7. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Why not take the initiative?

    ​Qureshpor is asking the questions! There is no point waiting for him!

    کچھ کٹی ہمت ِ سوال میں عمر
    کچھ اُمید ِ جواب میں گزری

    فانی
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  8. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    As mentioned above, these SaaHibaan would be able to provide detailed explanations in light of grammar along with relevant references from literature, whereas my response would merely be based on examples and English translations.
    It could be that this is one of those threads where he asks a question only to reveal (at the end) his extensive research on what Baba-e-Urdu or someone else has said about a certain construction...?!

    Here is an example that seems to illustrate the difference between _______ کوئی بھی andکوئی _______ بھی

    اس دوا کا نسخہ تو کوئی بھی معالج چسم دے/لکھ سکتا ہے
    The prescription for this medication can be given/written by any ophthalmologist (but not necessarily any other specialists).

    اس دوا کا نسخہ تو کوئی معالج چسم بھی دے/لکھ سکتا ہے
    The prescription for this medication can be given/written even by an ophthalmologist (apart from other specialists).
     
  9. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    marrish and Qureshpor SaaHibaan, could you perhaps present your views now?
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Alfaaz SaaHib, frankly in my mind I was not clear whether these two forms were identical or if there was a subtle difference between them. Marrish SaaHib's reply and your clarification has helped to explain the difference although for "ko'ii x bhii" I am not sure if "even by x" captures the full sense. I am still thinking. Thank you for your input. It is much appreciated. I think fasting is having a drastic effect on our Urdu contributors!
     
  11. Alfaaz Senior Member

    English
    You're welcome. Just noticed a typo: چشم → چسم
     
  12. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    As I signalised before, I consider both sentences to be grammatically sound and accurate but there is clearly a difference in meaning.

    اِس سے مراد کوئی گھوڑا بھی تو ہو سکتا ہے۔
    ________ کوئی بھی گھوڑاَ________

    The picture is quite obvious – it is the particle بھی that has changed place. Without indulging into all possible meanings this particle can display, the basic and most commonly used function is that of adverb ''too, in addition to, also''. Another usage of it is to modify or add emphasis to a word. Third application is in compound expressions like کوئی بھی، کجھ بھی، کہیں بھی، کبھی بھی، تو بھی، پھر بھی، جب بھی، تب بھی and the like. What appears to be common to all instances of its occurrence, بھی always follows the word it relates to. I think it follows the word immediately, unless that word is in indirect case and followed by a postposition. I can't think of other exceptions for the moment.

    When بھی follows کوئی، کچھ، جہاں، جب (third discussed option above) it can be translated as -ever or any-.

    First sentence:
    کوئی گھوڑا means 'a horse, some horse'
    کوئی گھوڑا بھی means 'even/also some horse'
    Second sentence:
    کوئی بھی means 'anyone or whoever'.
    کوئی بھی گھوڑا 'means any horse whatsoever' (not only buckskins).
     
  13. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    اِس سے مراد کوئی گھوڑا بھی تو ہو سکتا ہے

    This can imply some horse

    اِس سے مراد کوئی بھی گھوڑا تو ہو سکتا ہے

    This can imply any horse

    What do you think?
     
  14. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    If bhii is taken out of the first sentence, the translation remains the same but bhii adds emphasis; even/also.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Actually I did n't take the "bhii" out in my reckoning. I showed its presence by showing "horse" in bold.
     

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