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Urdu: oblique infinitives

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by ihsaan, Jan 22, 2013.

  1. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Hi,

    I´m working on understanding oblique infinitives. Could someone explain the use of it here? (hone) If possible, could you give me some other examples of how "hone" and other oblique infinitives can be used? I have tried to look this up in a grammar book, but I don´t see any grammar rules that can explain the usage in this sentence.

    ہمارے اسکول کو شروع ہوئے ابھی کچھ ہی دن گزرے تھے کہ ایک نئی لڑکی نے ہماری کلاس میں داخلہ لیا.

    Hamare iskool ko shuru hone abhi kuch hi din guzre the keh eik nai laRki hamari klaas mein dakhla lia.

    I understand what is said after "keh", but I don´t understand the meaning of the text in front of it. As far as I can gather it´s about a girl joining their class after the school has already started just a couple of days ago?
     
  2. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Your example does not have "hone" but "hu'e"!

    Only a few days had gone by since our school had started when a new girl registered in our class.

    Oblique Infinitives

    bha'ii jaldii kiijiye..mujhe skuul jaane meN der ho rahii hai

    Oh do hurry up! I am getting late for school.

    aaj phir jiine kii tamannaa hai
    aaj phir marne kaa iraadah hai

    Today I yearn once again to live
    Today I intend once again to die

    Gham-i-hastii kaa Asad kis se ho juz marg 3ilaaj
    sham3 har rang meN jaltii hai saHar hone tak

    Who has a cure for the sorrow of being, Asad, except death?
    Yes, a candle burns in all the colours by the time it is dawn
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  3. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Oh, this should teach me a lesson to enlarge the text when I read!

    Thank you for the examples. I found the middle ones the easiest to understand grammatically, but the first and last a bit more tricky. I think it needs time to sink in. Is the reason the "jaane" is used in the first sentence, due to it being an impending event?
     
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ The infinitive becomes oblique when it is followed by a postposition...kaa/ke/kii, ko, meN, se, tak. par etc
     
  5. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Good point! I didn't think of that in the middle of trying to read all the various rules concerning oblique infinitives. That does explains why it's oblique here, but it still doesn't really explain why this particular construct is chosen in for example sentence one. I think I'll have to try to find more info about this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Do you mean..?

    bha'ii jaldii kiijiye..mujhe skuul jaane meN der ho rahii hai

    If yes, then it becomes "jaane" because of "meN".
     
  7. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Yes, I didn't disagree with you. I was just wondering why the construct "jaane men" was used in this type of sentence the way it is. I'm just having trouble with breaking down the sentence:). I'm not sure how to explain... I'm just trying to figure out how I could incorporate something similar in a new sentence.
     
  8. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو

    Let me see if I can clarify the sentence.

    mujhe skuul jaane meN der ho rahii hai

    For me, delay is occurring in going to school

    Does this help?

    A few more examples of the oblique infinitive:

    tujhe kho diyaa ham ne paane ke ba3d
    terii yaad aa'ii tere jaane ke ba3d

    Shakeel Badayunia (Film: Aan)

    nah thaa kuchh to xudaa thaa, kuchh nah hotaa to xudaa hotaa
    Duboyaa mujh ko hone ne, nah hotaa maiN to kyaa hotaa

    hai xabar garm un ke aane kii
    aaj hii ghar meN boriyaa nah hu'aa

    Rumours are afoot of my beloved's coming round
    O misfortune! Not even a straw mat is to be found

    Ghalib

    marne vaale marte haiN lekin fanaa hote nahiiN
    vuh Haqiiqat meN kabhii ham se judaa hote nahiiN

    duur dunyaa kaa mire dam se aNdheraa ho jaa'e
    har jagah mere chamakne se ujaalaa ho jaa'e

    naxl merii aarzuu'oN kaa haraa hone ko thaa (naxl= date-palm)
    aah! kyaa jaane ko'ii maiN kyaa se kyaa hone ko thaa

    Iqbal

    kamar baaNdhe hu'e chalne ko sab yaar baiThe haiN (chalne ko = chalne ke liye)
    bahut aage ga'e, baaqii jo haiN taiyaar baiThe haiN

    Insha

    3uzr aane meN bhii hai aur bulaate bhii nahiiN
    baa3is-i-tark-i-mulaaqaat bataate bhii nahiiN

    You have an excuse for not coming, and you don't call me over either
    The cause of breaking off the meeting, you inform me about it neither

    daaGh
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  9. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Yes, putting it that way, it DOES make a lot of sense. Thank you, Qureshpor saahib!

    I appreciate the additional examples of oblique infinitives!
     
  10. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    There are times when the postposition is understood.

    vuh kaam karne jaa rahii thii jab...

    Here it is "karne ko" in reality.

    aur vuh kaam karne lagii

    And she began her work.

    Once again, "karne ko" or "karne meN"
     
  11. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Didn´t see that you added this post to the thread untill now. Thank you for adding that helpful piece of information.
     
  12. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Every language uses post/pre-positions differently. In English one would not use "in", but in Hindi we do. It is a big difference between Hindi and English.

    Another example is "kaar chalaane meN meri madad karo" - Help me to drive the car.

    Notice the large difference. Although, "help me in driving the car" still makes sense to my ears, although a bit awkward.
    In other words, it becomes impossible to translate post/pre-position directly from one language to another. One has to learn how they are used on
    a situation-to-situation basis.
     
  13. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Thanks for the input! :thumbsup: True, I realize that. That still doesn´t make it easier for a beginner:). I think in the start of learning a language one tends to overanalyze everything in order to understand the inner-workings of a language, but I hope that with enough exposure the points you mentioned will become "second nature" to me as I learn more Urdu.
     
  14. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Can anyone please come up with any sentences (preferably from prose/poetry) of the oblique infinitive when the postposition "meN" is understood. Thanks in advance.
     

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