Urdu/Persian: كشته

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by rc2, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. rc2 Junior Member

    India - Telugu
    I was wondering if I could solicit comments/input on the use of the word qualifier "kushta" (کشته), especially with "inanimate" objects.

    From Platts:
    کشته kushta (perf. part. of kushtan, q.v.), part. Killed,slain;—s.m. One who is killed or slain, a victim;(poet.) a lover;—killed mercury, a preparation of mercury; calcined metal, calx.

    Since "kushtan" specifically refers to "killing," it seems to be applicable for "live" or "life-like" objects, such as:
    tan (body)
    jaan (life)
    dil (heart)
    chiraaGh/sham'a (lamp/candle)
    phool (flowers).

    Specifically, is there a list of objects that "kushta" can be applied to and others that it cannot be used with? If so, what would determine such a list where this qualifier can be used?

    B) The same question goes for the word "Khasta" (خسته), for use with "inanimate" objects:
    From Platts again:

    P خسته ḵẖasta [part. perf. of ḵẖastan; fr. Zend qīś], part.adj. Wounded, hurt; broken; infirm; sick,sorrowful;—fragile, brittle; crisp, short, light (aspastry):—ḵẖasta-jān, ḵẖasta-jigar, adj.=ḵẖasta-dil, q.v.:—ḵẖasta-jānī, s.f.=ḵẖasta-dilī:—ḵẖasta-hāl, adj. In bad circumstances, in a bad situation; afflicted, distressed:—ḵẖasta-ḥālī, s.f. Distress, destitution; affliction:—ḵẖasta-dil, adj. Heart-broken; sick at heart:—ḵẖasta-dilī, s.f.The state of being heart-broken; wound or disease atheart.

    In the case of this word, one runs across usages with words such as jaan, dil, as well as for words one would not easily identify as being life-like at all -- examples: "makaan/imaarat/qasr" (unlisted in the defintion here).


    1) Am I right in thinking that in the above list, chiraaGh/sham'a/phool are not 'exactly" animate, but can possibly thought of as "life-like' perhaps -- thus explaining the applicability of the "kushta" qualifier?

    2) Can "kushta" also be used for structures such as "makaan," "imaarat", "qasr" etc.?

    3) The phrase "kushta-e taqdeer" is frequently heard. Can one also use "Khasta-e taqdeer" similarly? (not for identical meaning, of course -- but in construct only).

    Any examples from prose as well as poetry (in both Urdu and Persian) would be welcome. I hope my questions make sense.

    Thank you.
  2. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    1) I think you have made a good assumption.
    2) I don't think so.
    3) Seems perfectly allright.

    We also have xastah roTii (different meanig).
  3. rc2 Junior Member

    India - Telugu
    Thanks Marrish sahab .

    a) to re-iterate your position, are you saying that a sentence like:
    mera qasr-e ummeed Khasta-e taqdeer huaa
    would be acceptable?

    b) I have not heard "Khasta roTi" before - is it a "crisp/light" roTii then?

  4. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    You are welcome.
    a) it seems just perfect to me, leaving aside the feel of novelty in xastah-e-taqdiir.
    b) yes, it is a crisp roTii!
  5. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    RC Jii, both your questions could be better answered if Urdu speakers had access to searchable sources on the net where one could put in a word and it would throw up results of its usage by the masters. I say Urdu and not Persian because I am assuming that you have Urdu poetry in mind. Short of this, I think Platts' definition covers the meaning of "kushtah" as it is generally understood by Urdu speakers.

    Further to the above, you know that good writers try to tread new paths. Sometimes their ideas are accepted by the discerning reading public and sometimes they are not. But I do not believe in stagnation and merely relying on past usages. Let there be innovation..
  6. rc2 Junior Member

    India - Telugu
    On that note, QP-saahib, I agree to some degree with the innovation aspect, as long as it is not "contrived" to the extreme. If you ran across a usage of "kushtah-e taqdeer" for a "building" lets say - what is your first reaction to reading it?

    [ Yes, for the most part, I did have Urdu poetry in mind - but was also curious to hear what Persians would say in this regard. My own Persian, as you well know is very minimal as of now ].
  7. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu

    Sounds unconventional. A reader or listener who is not keen on taking the trouble of understanding the meaning of the words cannot understand it because he associates the calcified usage of this tarkiib with other connotations but, but, if one expects a bit of novelty and figurative expressions, I don't think it won't make sense. Taking the state of historical buildings in the South Asian subcontinent into account, one can but come to the conclusion that they are left to their fate only!
  8. rc2 Junior Member

    India - Telugu
    Novelty to the degree of extreme is what I personally stay away from. Then again, I prefer the classical style myself - so was curious to see "reactions" here -- one is very familiar with kushtah being used in the case of a "sham'a"

    hooN sham'a kushtah, darKhur-e mehfil naheeN rahaa

    Another couplet by Momin has a usage for "phool":

    kushtah-e-Hasrat-e-deedaar haiN yaa rab kis ke
    naKhl-e-taaboot meN jo phool lage nargis ke


    I still tend to think of the word being more apt for "life-like" objects (even if inanimate). A building or structure does not seem to fit the bill, and I suppose I too would cringe at a speaker who said: "voh 'imaarat kushtah-e taqdeer hui"
  9. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    charaaGh-i-Kayyaan kushtah shud, kaash man
    bah margash charaaGh-i-suxan kushtame


    az tuf-i-3ishq-i-tu dil dar kaf (f?)-i-saudaa futaad
    sooxtah chuuN siim gasht kushtah cho siimaab shud


    do chashm (-i-?) kushtah shiniidam kih suuy-i-jaan (N?) nigarad
    chiraa ba-jaan (N?) nigarii chuun (?) ba-jaan-i-jaaN raftii


    cho shud daaman tiirah-shab taa padiid
    hamah razm-gah kushtah-o-xastah diid

  10. rc2 Junior Member

    India - Telugu
    Many thanks for the Persian examples, QP-saahib.
    I see "charaaGh," "dil," "chashm," and "razm.gah" -- as the subject of the qualifier "kushtah" here. I wonder what they mean by "chashm-i-kushtah" in the couplet by Maulavii above. "extinguished eyes" for blindness?

    Hope for a translation of the couplets too..
  11. marrish

    marrish Senior Member

    اُردو Urdu
    Thank you for the reaction to my post, RC SaaHib. Reiterating, as you have conceived yourself, those 'objects' are considered to have some 'living animation'. phuul is surely a living being. I can perfectly find myself in considering a building being alive (or having been alive at a time and now 'dead').

    Maybe a ''naked'' statement 3imaarat kushtah-e-taqdiir hu'ii can sound strange but if provided with a proper context, I don't see any contra-indication to apply it.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  12. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Somehow my feelings are to the contrary but I won't belabour the point!:)

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