Urdu: the future tense

Discussion in 'Indo-Iranian Languages' started by ihsaan, May 4, 2011.

  1. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Hi,
    I have two sentences that I was told would express the future tense? With the first expressing something about to happen very soon, while the other would be more far away in time (later the same day, tomorrow or further ahead in time). I couldn't find the first grammatical construction in my grammar book, so I'm wondering if it is correct:

    Aap ne university par kitne baje jana hai?

    Aap university ko kitne baje jaenge?
     
  2. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    I'm a bit confused by what the translation of this sentence should be. It has some grammatical problems. Ne is only used for past tense.
    Jana hai signifies "must" go. And university in this situation does not need the post-position par.

    If you mean, "at what time are you going to go to university?" then the latter is fine.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  3. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Yes, the translation of the sentence is correct.

    I just found the first sentence sounding strange. I was told that they both mean the same, the only difference being the different lapse of time in terms of the future. The grammar looks strange to me too, but I´m merely a beginner in Urdu.
     
  4. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    There are a number of ways in which future is expressed in Urdu.

    aap ko university kitne baje jaanaa hai

    aap university kitne baje jaaeN ge.

    aap university kitne baje jaa rahe haiN

    aap university kitne baje jaane vaale haiN
     
  5. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Thank you so much for your reply.

    But just to be clear: is the sentence "Aap ne university par kitne baje jana hai?" then completely wrong? I´m sorry if I´m being difficult, I just want to be clear so I know for sure.
     
  6. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A well known scholar* of Urdu background gives both variations as correct. I would personally stick with the "ko" version.


    * Introductory Urdu: C.M.Naim
     
  7. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    I really appreciate your help. Thank you! :)
     
  8. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    One should note that all these sentences have slightly different meanings.
    1) at what time must you go to university?
    2) at what time will you go to university?
    3) at what time are you going to university?
    4) at what time are you about to go to university?

    Maybe this is beyond the scope of this discussion, but it jana ever considered a transitive verb in Urdu in practice?
     
  9. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    People will naysay on this type of "ne" construction, though it's used all the time. Having said that, it's not "written" Urdu. I concur with Qureshpor: the "ko" version is safe.

    Edit (we posted at the same time): I've never heard "jaanaa" as a transitive verb, but I have heard transitive verbs as intransitive verbs: lenaa; denaa. Subjects for another thread.
     
  10. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Okay, I see. Thank you! Do you know if the sentences give different impressions of future time?

    Could I use "Aap university ko kitne baje jaenge?" if I was talking about something close in time? I´m asking generally in terms of verbs conjugated in this way.

    So for example, to use another example: I see someone taking out plates and forks, and I ask "Aap khana khaenge?" ("Are you going to eat?") (There is probably a more correct way to ask, but I´m just trying to ask if this way of conjugating the verb also can be used for future events that are very close in time (e.g. minutes).

    Also, the
    "aap ko university kitne baje jaanaa hai" where one uses a "ko" instead of ne" implicates that one has to do something, while when asking a Pakistani I was told that when he used "ne" it was about something one was going to do, while ko was used for something one had to do.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2011
  11. BP. Senior Member

    Karachi
    Urdu
    Take this as my fatwaa (opinion) if people don't accept it as a grammatical rule:
    nee is used SOLELY in the past tense, and over here koo is simply the to in to do.
     
  12. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    aap ko university kitne / ka'e baje jaana hai?

    In our speech,
    aap ne university kitne baje jaana hai is considered wrong though many people now use it.... and you don't need par.
     
  13. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    Can anyone give some kind of description of where or who uses this type of ne construction? And are we talking about Pakistan or India or both?
     
  14. panjabigator

    panjabigator Senior Member

    غریب الوطن
    Am. English
    I had to "unlearn" this construction when I studied Hindi and Urdu at university. It's common with Punjabi H/U speakers. The "ne" replaces the "ko" in some (agentive?) constructions. I'd say "main ne jaanaa" but "mujhe jaanaa chahiye."

    I believe it's used all over Pakistan (even by non-Punjabis) and it's quite common in Delhi. I hear it in (Indian) Punjab all the time.
     
  15. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    A couple of points, Ihsaan Sahib.

    1) After the word "university", if you do wish to put a postposition, then neither "ko" nor "par" would be correct. I would suggest that you use "meN"

    aap ko university (meN) kitne baje jaanaa hai?

    What time do you have to go to university?

    aap university kitne baje jaaeN ge.

    What time will you go to university

    aap university kitne baje jaa rahe haiN

    What time are you going to university

    aap university kitne baje jaane vaale haiN

    What time (in the near future) are you going to university.

    For your second question, here are a couple of contradictory views on the use of ne and ko.

    "In the everyday Urdu of Pakistan, the logical subject of the sentence may be followed either by "ko" or by "ne": maiN ne Dinar par jaanaa thaa, " I was supposed to go (out) to dinner." In dialects which have this option, the case of "ko" tends to be restricted to external circumstances which are not under the speaker's control, whereas "ne" refers to circumstances permitting internal choice, or neutral circumstances. This usage is not correct in the standard Urdu of Delhi."

    Urdu An Essential Grammar by Ruth Laila Schmidt (Routledge 1999)

    "Since the fifties, influenced by standard usage in Punjabi, many Pakistani Urdu writers and speakers commonly use the postposition "ne" in this indirect construction, instead of original "ko" which is still the standard in India. Both usages are now equally correct in Urdu."

    Naim, C.M. Introductory Urdu (Volume One) [Chicago]: South Asia Language & Area Center, University of Chicago 1999
    ..............................................

    I hope this has been helpful.
     
  16. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Mufti BP Sahib, "fatwaa" is a bit strong is n't it?:)

    Regarding usage of "ne" for past only, please see C.M. Naim's statement quoted in another post. I personally would go for the correct "ko" form but the "ne" option does provide an extra dimension, as demonstrated by Schmidt in the same thread.
     
  17. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    Faylasoof Sahib. Perhaps it might be beneficial to clarify "we" and "our" for those participants who might not be aware of your linguistic background. Here is a "latiifah" quoted from a friend's post in another Forum.

    ek martabah "All India Radio" ke saabiq mudiir/chairman se kisii ne daryaaft kiyaa k janaab ye baataiye k "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai"Thiik hai ya "mujhe vahaaN jaanaa hai". unhoN ne javaab diyaa "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" durust hai. is par puuchne vaale ne hairat kaa izhaar kiyaa k janaab aap itne baRe Urdudaan hote hu'e ye kaise farmaate haiN! is par hazrat ne kahaa k, miyaaN baat siidhii sii hai. "mujhe vahaaN jaana hai" se sirf ye pataa chaltaa hai k jaanaa kahaaN hai. jab k "maiN ne vahaaN jaanaa hai" se ye bhii ma'luum ho jaataa hai, k aaye kahaaN se haiN! :)
     
  18. Faylasoof Senior Member

    Plato's Republic
    English (UK) & Urdu (Luckhnow), Hindi
    This has been discussed in earlier threads!

    But just to reiterate, by "our" and "we", I'm specifically referring to the lakhnavi dialect in general and my / our family and friends in particular who speak the same.
     
  19. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    I just reviewed this thread, and I was wondering if anyone could answer this question. What I´m wondering is if this tense specifically can be used for something occurring in the immediate future. I´ve read through the various translations of the various sentences, but I´m still unsure about the answer.
     
  20. tonyspeed Senior Member

    JA- English & Creole
    "kyaa aap (khaanaa) khaanewaale haiN ?: would emphasize the immediacy of the action as opposed to "kyaa aap khaanaa khaaenge?"
     
  21. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    I see. Thank you for clarifying, Tony! Can I also infer from this that using the other tense in that sense would therefor be "wrong".

    So..is it correct to say:

    Aap khaanevale haiN? (right now..)
    Aap aaj/kal kitne baje lunch khaaenge? (future which is furter away)
    Could I also for example say: "Aap (abhi) dukaan ko jaanevale haiN?" (Just as someone is heading out the door)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  22. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    ^ Context is extremely important of course.

    (kyaa) aap khaanaa khaane vaale haiN* = Are you about to eat?

    aap aaj kitne baje lunch kareN ge = What time will you have lunch today?

    For your last one, I might say..

    aap abhii dukaan jaa rahe haiN? = Are you going to the shop right away?

    * aap khaanaa khaane vaale haiN could mean, in the right context

    You are the ones who take food (but when we visit our friends, we restrict ourselves to drinks only)!:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2013
  23. ihsaan Senior Member

    Norwegian
    Ah! This makes a lot of sense when you put it that way. I think I´m getting the hang of it now. Thank you.
     
  24. mastermind1212 New Member

    India-Hindi
    Yes all these are correct future tenses, but generally in Urdu , 2nd one "aap university kitne baje jaaeN ge", is used.
     
  25. Qureshpor Senior Member

    Punjabi, Urdu پنجابی، اردو
    No one has mentioned negating the future. A few minutes ago I was watching an old Youtube interview where the interviewee is a mother tongue Urdu speaker. The interviewer asked him a question to which the interviewee was not prepared to answer. He expressed his reply thus, which I think is a lovely way of saying "I am not going to divulge this matter to you".

    "yih maiN aap ko bataane se rahaa"
     

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