Use of GHayn in PayGHambar

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by superherosaves, Jul 9, 2013.

  1. superherosaves New Member

    Indian Urdu & American English
    I have heard the term PayGHambar used in Persian, Urdu and Turkish. I read that PaYam means message in Persian and -bar means carrier.

    If PaYambar is Messenger in Persian, why do these other languages use GHayn instead? I thought only Arabic uses GHayn, so how did it get into Persian use?
     
  2. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    GHayn is used in both Arabic and Persian. It's not strictly an Arabic sound. payaam, payaambar, peyGHaam, and peyGHaambar are all found in Persian.
     
  3. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    These are different dialect forms within Iranian, all from *pati-gāma- “message”: Parthian padγām, Middle Persian paygām, New Persian payγām and payām, also Bactrian πιδογαμοβαργο “messenger” and Choresmian pcγʼmβrk. NP payγām seems to be a hybrid of South-Western (Persian) and North-Western (Parthian) forms.
     
  4. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Or to answer your question at a more general level: γayn does not normally occur in “genuine” Persian words, but only in loanwords from North-Western or Eastern Iranian languages, or from Avestan, Arabic or Turkish.
     
  5. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Is the reflex of "gh" in those NW or Eastern Iranian languages always "yy" in New Persian ?
     
  6. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Let us put it this way: Old Iranian –g- between two vowels normally becomes –y- in Middle and New Persian, but –γ- in Parthian, Sogdian, Bactrian, Choresmian.
     
  7. Wolverine9 Senior Member

    American English
    Did Avestan inherit γ from Proto Indo-Iranian (and Proto Indo-European) or was it a later development?
     
  8. hadronic Senior Member

    New York
    French - France
    Has this sound been consistently written with ghayn, or would sometimes be qof used instead ?
     
  9. fdb Senior Member

    Cambridge, UK
    French (France)
    Of course nobody really knows what proto-Indo-Iranian or proto-Indo-European sounded like. In our reconstruction of proto-Indo-Iranian we assume a *g and a *gh, which in certain defined circumstances become /γ/ in Avestan, and in some other Iranian languages.

     

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