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Usted (origin)

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by MarcB, Aug 14, 2005.

  1. MarcB Senior Member

    US English
    Usted- origin. I have heard it is from arabic= usted= title of respect.
    and su merced Spanish title of respect. does anyone know for sure which is correct or is it a combination of both?
     
  2. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Hola Marc!

    I don't think there's any arabic origin about it. "Usted" comes from the colonial expression "vuestra merced". Later it was shortened as "vuesa merced", then "vusted" and finally "usted".

    How do you translate "vuestra merced". Perhaps as "your highness"? I'm not sure about this. :(

    saludos :)
     
  3. MarcB Senior Member

    US English
    thanks phryne vuestra merced makes more sense than su merced. but about 30 % of spanish has arabic origin from the 400 years Spain was controled by arabs. almost all the words that begin with al are of arabic origin.
     
  4. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    You're right, but 30%? It seems way too much! :eek:

    sados :)
     
  5. josama Senior Member

    Bogotá, Colombia
    Colombia, Spanish
    I had never thought of it, but peasants from a central region in Colombia (more or less near Bogotá) use "Su merced" and "Vusté" to address other people (even their parents, kids, etc.)

    But maybe because they are the only ones using them, sometimes they're mocked using the expression Vusté a lot... Never thought of it as a contraction of "vuesa merced"...

    Some Colombian peasants from different regions use many other antique words as well, such as "fierro" for "hierro", "forno" for "horno" and many, many others...

    I'm going to think it over...
     
  6. josama Senior Member

    Bogotá, Colombia
    Colombia, Spanish
    Maybe "Su Merced" OR "Vuestra Merced" could really mean: "(estoy a) su/vuestra merced": "(I'm at) thine mercy" (<---is this OK?)
     
  7. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    How interesting! In Argentina we use the word "fierro" a lot, not interchangeably to "hierro", though. We say it to refer to an iron bar, you know, like metal objects you find in a construction site, or in slang as in "Fulanito es de fierro" meaning that Fulanito is a strong friend of mine/ours. There are other meanings but I'm not going to describe them all. :rolleyes:

    saludos :)
     
  8. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    .. o...Thy??

    Yo en esto soy menos que una principiante! :eek:
     
  9. josama Senior Member

    Bogotá, Colombia
    Colombia, Spanish
    Yo también, pero acabo de encontrar en el dicc. que thy se usa sólo antes de palabras que empiezan en vocal o h y el resto de palabras deben estar precedidas de thine...:cross:

    Es al revés
     
  10. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    Mirá :eek: wikipedia , dice lo contrario.

    Thy / Thine1

    1 In a deliberately archaic style, the forms with /n/ are used before words beginning with a vowel sound (thine eyes).


    saludos :)
     
  11. josama Senior Member

    Bogotá, Colombia
    Colombia, Spanish
    ¡Tenés razón!

    Miré mal en el dicc., parece

    Por eso yo soy novato y tú, Senior Member...:rolleyes:
     
  12. Phryne

    Phryne Senior Member

    New York City
    Argieland--Esp/Eng
    :confused: Ya me vas a conocer mejor, soy ama y señora de los errores! :D

    Saludos,
    María José :)
     
  13. Puntitas Senior Member

    next to an industrial complex between a peach orch
    México/United States Spanish/English
    Hola,

    "Thy" y "thine" dejaron de usarse hace 200 años. Ahora solamente lo dicen personas que desean afectar un estilo antiguo o poético.

    Pienso que "su merced" sería algo como "your worship" o "Your lordship/ladyship".

    ciao
     
  14. josama Senior Member

    Bogotá, Colombia
    Colombia, Spanish
    Sí Puntitas, creo que ya lo sabíamos. Pero muchas gracias por tu aporte.

    I wasn't aware of the latter two expressions, which may fit in perfectly.
     
  15. fenixpollo

    fenixpollo Mod Chicken

    Arizona
    American English
    Otro buen hilo sobre Usted.

    Saludos.
     
  16. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    O.K., I did a little research, and found the following:

    De vuestra merced a usted
    pdf with enlightening tables
     
  17. gotitadeleche Senior Member

    Texas, U.S.A.
    U.S.A. English
    Another option would be "Your Grace"
     
  18. diegodbs

    diegodbs Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain-Spanish
    The percentage of Spanish words that come from Latin, is about 75%, and from Arabic 17%.
     
  19. Paul Wessen Senior Member

    San Jose Costa Rica
    USA English
    VUESTRA MERCED.....

    In the US, anyone unfortunate enough to have to attend a court (of justice) is required to address the judge as "Your Honor." I think that must be pretty close to "Vuestra Merced." This is the only occasion that I can think of where this form of address is used,

    --------------------- Paul
     
  20. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    I suspect that in Spanish speaking countries "usted" would not be respectful enough to address a judge. There should be a special form of address for it.
     
  21. jmx

    jmx Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Spain / incorrect Spanish
    As I have said at least in 2 threads that the percentage of Spanish words coming from Arabic is about 5%, and I don't want to be held as a liar, I've done a little research, with little success. All I've found on the net is this link, where the percentage is assessed at 8% :

    http://www.aulaintercultural.org/IMG/pdf/63.quintana_mora.pdf

    My own calculation was this : if there are 4,000 to 5,000 Arabic words in Spanish, and the number of entries in the RAE dictionary is around 87,000, then

    5,000 / 87,000 = 0,0575 = 5,75%
     
  22. diegodbs

    diegodbs Senior Member

    Madrid
    Spain-Spanish
    Tienes razón, no hice nada por verificar si ese 17% que vi en una información era correcto o no. Me conformé con ver que era inferior al 30% que citaba otra persona, y que me parecía excesivo.
    You can be sure you won't be held as a liar.
    Saludos.
     
  23. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    Algunas porcentajes pueden referirse al español medieval y otras al español actual. Sin duda, muchas palabras españolas de origen árabe no se usan más.
     
  24. friedfysh Senior Member

    Doncaster, UK
    England, United Kingdom (English)
    As I understand it (just an idea that ocurred to me), old spanish worked a lot like modern french, where tu was used informally and vos was used to address somebody formally. the conjugations being identical to those of modern vosotros, which was also used to address more than one person in all contexts formal or not. Vuestra merced is therefore referring to some aspect of the person rather then adressing the person directly. As "merced" is singular vuestra merced is followed by the 3rd person forms.. e.g. vuestra merced (usted) es español.
    Vuestra mercedes (ustedes) needs the same form as "they" because it refers to the mercedes and not the people directly.

    una persona informal = tú (eres)
    una persona formal - vos (sois)
    más que una persona - vosotros (sois)
    una persona (o más bien una de sus calidades) super formal- vuestra merced/usted (es)
    más que una persona super formal - ustedes (son)

    If there were such an equivalent in english it would be something like "your grace" so therefore "is your grace english" - "es usted inglés"

    What does everyone think, have I solved this?
     
  25. trevorb Senior Member

    York, England
    UK: English
    Creo haber oído en algún programa de la televisión española la palabra 'señoría' para llamar a la juez durante un juicio. Supongo que esto depende del país y probablemente del nivel del tribunal.
     
  26. friedfysh Senior Member

    Doncaster, UK
    England, United Kingdom (English)
    yes, as far as I know a judge is referred to as "su señoría"
     
  27. juliakbrown Junior Member

    Thy, thine, thee and thou are still used currently by Quakers; in my family we use them within the family but not outside of it. Using the terms marks you as a Quaker to others.
     
  28. friedfysh Senior Member

    Doncaster, UK
    England, United Kingdom (English)
    Some people in Yorkshire occassionally say "thee" but its more for a bit of fun, generally we use "you", however it is not uncommon to hear "hows thee?"
     
  29. fenixpollo

    fenixpollo Mod Chicken

    Arizona
    American English
  30. friedfysh Senior Member

    Doncaster, UK
    England, United Kingdom (English)
    right well in that case could somebody please give me some feedback as to whether my theory about "usted" (see above) holds up?
     
  31. fenixpollo

    fenixpollo Mod Chicken

    Arizona
    American English
    I assume that you're referring to this post:
    If you read the other posts in this thread, you'll find that yes, it's been solved.
    Saludos.
     
  32. malumesa Senior Member

    Costa Rica-Spanish
    Hola foreros del mundo

    Llego tarde al foro, pero igual deseo contribuir.
    En Costa Rica se usa: Señor Juez.
    He leído que en otros países se usa "Su Señoría" para dirigirse a un juez.

    Espero haber contribuido con futuras referencias.

    Saludos
     

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