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vörös bor / vörösbor

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by Sowka, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Szia :)

    I'm an absolute beginner in Hungarian (this is my sixth day of learning...).

    My Assimil textbook translates "vörös bor" as "red wine" (and the two guests in the restaurant in my textbook dialog order a liter of the substance!).
    My Langenscheidt dictionary German-Hungarian, however, gives "vörösbor" for "red wine".

    Initially I thought that these were simply two ways of spelling the same thing, but then I found a difference in the Sztaki dictionary:

    vörös bor - port
    vörösbor - red wine

    How do you use these words? Would you also make this distinction?

    Köszönöm szépen. Minden jót. :)
     
  2. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    There is no distinction and both can be found, maybe wrongly if it is the general idea of vörösbor "red wine".
    This can better be explained with fehérbor "white wine": such wine is not really white and it can be a bit yellow for instance, so "white wine" is a general name and not the product (wine) + a colour which would be fehér bor.
    In fact this is disputed, I think it is because of some new orthographical rules and Hungarian natives should be able to tell you more about this. At your level of course you do not need more than just know and accept both forms, but you may be curious.
    -- Olivier
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  3. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Köszönöm, Olivier :)
     
  4. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I'd like to add that I (a native speaker) also have problems with this, i.e. when to write similar expressions separately and when together, even if the "rule" seems to be quite clear. And not only in Hungarian ... For example háziasszony (housewife) is written together both in English and Hungarian, but háztető (house roof) in Eglish is written separately ... Or almeno (at least) in Italian is written together, but the same al menos in Spanish has to be written separately ...
     
  5. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Thank you, francisgranada :)

    We have similar problems in German (write together or not...). But I was mainly wondering if you'd associate a different liquid with the separate words, as does the dictionary mentioned above:

    vörös bor = port wine (i.e., a thicker wine with more rpm ;) (mine has 19% vol.)
    This is what Wikipedia says about port:
    vörösbor = red wine (i.e. a "normal" red wine with around 11% vol.).
     
  6. gorilla Junior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Hungarian orthography is quite irregular as to what is written in one word and what in two words. Often it depends on tradition.
    A general rule of thumb is that expressions tend to be written in one word when there is some special extra meaning that is not conveyed by the two parts separately. This is very vague, and a lot of times it's simply tradition, as I said.
    For example, világos sör (lager beer) is in two words even though not all "light colored" beers are lager beers.
     
  7. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    I'd say that surely not. It is a translation to English, maybe for the English "port" is an equivalent for "red wine" (vino tinto), I don't know ...

    In Hungarian (as far as I know or "feel") vörösbor is a kind of wine that is normally red (due to the vine/grape used etc...), e.g. "Egri bikavér" or "Portói bor" or whichever, independently on the origin and the rpm. That is, a vörösbor remains vörösbor, even if it is artificially coloured blue (for some reason ...). In such case we should have, ad absurdum, a "kék vörösbor" (blue red wine or blue port?), but not a vörös bor (i.e. not a wine of red colour). At least, I think this is the logic of the separate versus non separate writing in this case (agreeing with Oliviero, post #2)...

    For curiosity, in Hungarian there are two words for red: vörös and piros, with slightly different usage.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  8. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Many thanks for your detailed explanation, Francis! :)

    So it seems that the online dictionary states a difference that is not made in normal language usage. I'll go with "vörösbor" in my vocabulary database (and, in the same way, "fehérbor"; interestingly, my textbook writes this in two words, too). I see the reasoning.

    Thank you very much, everyone! :)
     
  9. francisgranada Senior Member

    Slovakia
    Hungarian
    Szívesen :)
     
  10. Akitlosz Senior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian
    vörös bor = A wine, which is red. (The red is an attribute of the wine.)
    vörösbor = red wine (The red is the part of the name of the single group of the wines.)

    Otherwise all the same. :)
     
  11. gorilla Junior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    "Vörös bor" is never used in the sense "a wine which just happens to be red color, but is not red wine". It is almost without exception a spelling error and it is supposed to mean "red wine".
     
  12. Akitlosz Senior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian
    Vörösbor is a noun.

    Vörös bor are an adjective and a noun.
     
  13. gorilla Junior Member

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Vörösbor is orthographically considered to be a compound word and not a phrase of two words. But a "compound word" has no clear-cut definition, it is just an orthographical convention.
    There are similar phrases that are written in two words even though the connection between them is very strong:
    Világos sör, mezei nyúl, vajas kenyér, fehér kenyér...

    Spelling has to be learned, it is not about logic (sadly the orthographical rules defined by the academy are quite inconsistent and have lots of exceptions).
     
  14. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    Now only vörösbor is acceptable.
    In the 19th century people wrote "vörös bor". So you can find that spelling in the older literature.
     
  15. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Thank you, Encolpius :)
     
  16. AndrasBP

    AndrasBP Senior Member

    Budapest, Hungary
    Hungarian
    As a native speaker of Hungarian, I'd like to point out that "vörös bor = port" is definitely wrong.
    Port is called "portói" (portó + adjectival suffix "-i") or "oportó" (where "o" is the Portuguese def.article)
     
  17. Sowka

    Sowka Forera und Moderatorin

    Hannover
    German, Northern Germany
    Thank you very much, AndrasBP :) This was the question that still bothered me.
     

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