Vicar for Religious

Discussion in 'Italian-English' started by catherineosb, Aug 28, 2014.

  1. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Buon giorno a ognuno! :)

    Come si dice in italiano, "We had been introduced more than twenty years ago by the then Vicar for Religious in the Shrewsbury Diocese"?

    Si trova la frase nel brano mensile che la Badessa scrive per il nostro sito internet. Questo "vicar" non e' un parrocco anglicano ma un prete cattolico seniore, deputato dal Vescovo badare alle Congregazioni per Religiosi nel diocese. La frase precedente dice: "Later in the day a priest friend came for "spiritual accompaniment".

    Il mio tentativo e': "Ci eravamo introdotto piu' di venti anni fa dal poi Vicario per Religiosi nel diocese di Shrewsbury, Padre Peter Robertson". Va bene cosi'?:confused: Forse c'è un termine specializzato per una tale persona - che pensate?

    Vi ringrazio in anticipo,
    catherineosb
     
  2. Mark Dobson

    Mark Dobson Senior Member

    Emilia–Romagna, Italy
    English (England)
    Beh, secondo me va bene così. Vediamo!

    Edit: Well, I just found "Vicario dei Religiosi" with a quick Google, so I guess that'll be it. I think you'll want presentarsi or conoscersi for "to be introduced", in some fashion.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  3. Mary49

    Mary49 Senior Member

    Padova
    Italian
    Ciao catherine,
    "diocese" = "diocesi" (feminine) ---> "...nella diocesi di Shrewsbury..." :)
     
  4. london calling Senior Member

    SALERNO, ITALY
    UK ENGLISH

    Eravamo stati presentati oltre venti anni prima dal Vicario dei Religiosi nella diocesi di Shrewsbury. Mary?:)
     
  5. Mary49

    Mary49 Senior Member

    Padova
    Italian
    Perfect! :)
     
  6. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Many thanks - I wish I'd had the gumption to Google!

    Catherine.

    Many thanks, London calling - you've helped a lot!

    Thanks so much for your help!:D

    Catherine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
  7. Pietruzzo Senior Member

    Italian
    Can "ago" be rendered as "prima"?. I would have said "vent'anni fa". As far as I know "prima" should be "before" or "previously". Am I wrong?
     
  8. amatriciana Senior Member

    Venezia
    English - UK and US
    You're right -- but it's really the original English that's at fault. The past perfect "we had been" putting the reference time back in the past + "ago" putting the reference time in the present = conflict. If I read it as something written by a native speaker then my brain just autocorrects "ago" to "earlier/before/previously", which is what the others have translated it as. (We usually start out a sentence with the tense we want, but if we aren't concentrating too much on grammar we may inadvertently drift out of it later in the sentence).
     
  9. CPA Senior Member

    Rome
    British English/Italian - bilingual
    "Later in the day a priest friend came for 'spiritual accompaniment'. We had been introduced more than twenty years ago [earlier] by the then Vicar for Religious in the Shrewsbury Diocese."

    Assuming that your Badessa had been introduced to the priest by the Vicar:

    Mi era stato presentato più di vent'anni prima dall'allora Vicario dei Religiosi nella Diocesi di Shrewsbury.

    Ci eravamo conosciuti più di vent'anni prima tramite l'allora Vicario dei Religiosi nella Diocesi di Shrewsbury.

     
  10. Mark Dobson

    Mark Dobson Senior Member

    Emilia–Romagna, Italy
    English (England)
    And thank you for reminding me of the fine word 'gumption'. :)
     
  11. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Many thanks, Amitriciana.
    M. Paula leaves me free to adapt what she writes to make it easier for translation, but somehow I still always try to render her text literally!:rolleyes:
    Catherine.

    Thanks, CPA, that's great! :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014
  12. Pietruzzo Senior Member

    Italian
    I can't say much about English but it's different in Italian. The choice between "fa" and "prima" depends on the date of the priest's visit(that we don't know).In the case that he showed up recently(this year) we should use "fa" anyway.
    Eg.
    Last Sunday
    Più tardi un amico sacerdote è venuto per un incontro spirituale. Eravamo/siamo stati presentati più di vent'anni fa dall'allora Vicario per i religiosi della diocesi di Shrewsbury ("prima" is incorrect)
    One day, years ago
    Più tardi un amico sacerdote venne per un incontro spirituale. Eravamo stati presentati più di vent'anni prima dall'allora vicario per i religiosi della diocesi di Shrewsbury (assuming that, as you said, "ago" is improperly used in place of "earlier")
     
  13. Blackman

    Blackman Senior Member

    Island of Sardinia, Italy
    Italiano/Sardo
    Something puzzles me: had they been introduced in the Shrewsbury diocese or Shrewsbury was the diocese the vicar belonged to?
    Would it be the first, to avoid confusion a better translation would be: ci eravamo conosciuti vent'anni prima nella diocesi di S., presentati dal....second one would be vicario per i religiosi della diocesi...
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
  14. amatriciana Senior Member

    Venezia
    English - UK and US
    Hi Pietruzzo, they're good points ... in English it's really the same as far as "ago" and "earlier" are concerned.

    It's maybe worth clarifying that the tense of "had been" in "We had been introduced ... " is for something that's in the past relative to something that's already thoroughly in the past, and that's how we understand that the priest friend came around one day, years ago (or at least thoroughly in the past). "Eravamo stati presentati" is maybe more ambiguous on this point.

    If the priest friend came around recently, the sentence would have been "We were introduced over twenty years ago ... "
    Which is like the "siamo stati presentati" option you gave.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
  15. amatriciana Senior Member

    Venezia
    English - UK and US
    The latter.
     
  16. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Molte grazie, Oddysseus54!
    Catherine

    That's right - the monastery was then in the diocese of Wrexham, in North Wales (I hasn't arrived then).
    Catherine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014
  17. Pietruzzo Senior Member

    Italian
    Still not sure about that. I'd like to hear from Suor Catherine about this point.
     
  18. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Hi, Pietruzzo! :)
    Thank you for your interest. M. Paula, our Abbess, writes the reflections in the form of a diary for the month (perhaps I should have mentioned this at the outset?). The priest friend came round one day in mid-August. After that, M. Paula, the Abbess, reminisicences about their having been introduced more than twenty years previously by the then Vicar for Religious - who, she then says, had died a few days before the priest friend visited her.
    Perhaps I should add the fact about the diary-form when I give the context for my questions? The tense isn't usually so significant - hence my oversight.
    Catherine.
     
  19. amatriciana Senior Member

    Venezia
    English - UK and US
    Thanks Catherine for clarifying the actual timeline and context. Maybe it helps to explain the conflict of tenses in the first place. It's conceivable that the Abbess records and reflects on events in her diary in the manner of a memoir, narrating events with hindsight, putting them squarely in the past. (Otherwise, there aren't too many explanations for using "had been introduced" and "had died a few days before the priest friend visited her" for a visit of less than two weeks ago.) When the "ago" slipped in, it just reflected the fact that this visit happened very recently.
     
  20. Pietruzzo Senior Member

    Italian
    In that case I would translate the sentence as I had suggested in post #12:

    Più tardi un amico sacerdote è venuto per un incontro spirituale. Ci aveva presentati più di vent'anni fa("prima is not correct) l'allora vicario per i religiosi della diocesi di Shrewsbury
    I don't see any mismatch in the Italian sentence between the "trapassato prossimo" and "vent'anni fa". Indeed, it's quite appropriate, since we're speaking of a dead person
     
  21. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Thanks, Amatriciana - I never fail to be impressed by the trouble people take on the forum to ensure clarity over the background to a question in this way!
    Catherine.

    Many thanks for this, Pietruzzo. I'd like to explain, though, my reasons for retaining "spiritual accompaniment", from the sentence before the one for which I was actually asking help. This expression has to a large extent replaced "spiritual direction" and has become a technical term in its own right. M. Paula is asked to do quite a lot of this.

    Catherine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  22. Blackman

    Blackman Senior Member

    Island of Sardinia, Italy
    Italiano/Sardo
    For some reason I'm not able to explain, ci aveva presentati più di vent'anni fa doesn't sound too correct to my ear, at least not in this context. I keep saying it in my mind and gets even worse. I'd use it this way only if I were talking face to face to someone ("condoglianze, lo conoscevamo bene, ci era stato presentato più di vent'anni fa"). But in this case, telling a story to an indefinite audience of readers, I'd definitely write ci aveva presentati più di vent'anni prima (Facemmo le nostre condoglianze e spiegammo che ci era stato presentato più di vent'anni prima.) It might be an issue related to direct/indirect speech, personal taste, or, more likely, I'm at fault. What do others think about it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  23. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    That's my gut-reaction, but I'm not a reliable witness! :p
    Catherine.
     
  24. Odysseus54

    Odysseus54 Mod huc mod illuc

    In the hills of Marche
    Italian - Marche
    In my opinion, the reason why you wouldn't use 'vent'anni fa' in your second example would be about the distance in time of what you are telling, not the audience.

    Does "Ieri siamo andati a trovare i congiunti. Abbiamo fatto le nostre condoglianze e abbiamo spiegato che il caro estinto ci era stato presentato piu' di vent'anni fa" sound as bad ?





    .
     
  25. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    I'm afraid I couldn't say - "Aspetta i madrelinguisti", as they say! :D
    Catherine.
     
  26. Blackman

    Blackman Senior Member

    Island of Sardinia, Italy
    Italiano/Sardo
    That's not exactly the same example and the way you put it sounds good. But these are subtleties: does facemmo le nostre condoglianze e spiegammo che ci era stato presentato vent'anni fa work in your opinion? Could it be related to the different tense?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2014
  27. Odysseus54

    Odysseus54 Mod huc mod illuc

    In the hills of Marche
    Italian - Marche
    In my opinion it is all about the different tense. When you use the 'passato remoto' in Italian , you move the action back to a relatively distant past. At that point you can't use 'fa', because it requires that the point in time from which you start measuring the time to the past event , and the present where the speaker is, either coincide or are close enough to be considered both as 'almost present'.

    1) "Sono andato a trovarlo stamattina/ieri/il mese scorso. Ci eravamo conosciuti vent'anni fa , poi ci siamo persi di vista quando e' andato a vivere a Belluno"

    Ma

    2) "Lo andai a trovare/lo sono andato a trovare nel 2004. Ci eravamo conosciuti dieci anni prima ecc. "

    Nella (2) non puoi usare 'vent'anni fa', anche se i conti cronologicamente tornerebbero, non ti pare ?
     
  28. Blackman

    Blackman Senior Member

    Island of Sardinia, Italy
    Italiano/Sardo
    Mi pare Odysseus, bella spiegazione.
     
  29. catherineosb

    catherineosb Senior Member

    Chester, NW England
    England, English
    Thank you, Odysseus54, your example is as clear as crystal! :D
    Catherine.
     

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