Vincit Amor Patriae

Discussion in 'Lingua Latina (Latin)' started by gred, Apr 17, 2008.

  1. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    A token from 1811 has the inscription "VINCIT AMOR PARRI AE"


    Can anyone tell me what this would be in English? I assume that it is "love conquers ??? ???" - thanks
     
  2. Anne345 Senior Member

    France
    Vincit Amor Patriae Love of Country Conquers
    motto of 28th Infantry regiment ?
     
  3. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    I don't know about the infantry - the token has the legend I was asking about and date with the bust of a man on the front and on the back is a seated woman holding flowers with a wreath around the edge of the token.

    Thanks for the assistance, but now a related question - what would the latin for "Good Love Conquers All" be?
     
  4. Fred_C

    Fred_C Senior Member

    France
    Français
    Maybe :
    "Omnia vincit amor probus" ??
     
  5. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    thanks - any other suggestions?

    the 28th infantry was organized in 1901, so the token from 1811 is related to something else. And I think it is British not American.
     
  6. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    I found it - its a half penny, British, with the head of Wellington on it - thanks
     
  7. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    It's been a while, but "Love conquers all" would then be "Omnia Vincit amor"? And is there some reason the order in Latin would be as such, and not "Amor vincit omnia"?

    A dictionary says the "probus" would be upright, liberal, generous, which would fit somewhat with what I was looking for "good love (conquers all)".
    But is there a better word in Latin that would signify really good love, great love, the love we all hope for, search for?

    thanks - gred
     
  8. Kevin Beach

    Kevin Beach Senior Member

    Many Latin phrases were used on unofficial currency tokens in 18th and early 19th century Britain, when there was a shortage of official coins in circulation. They were usually issued by traders or city trade chambers. Using images of famous people and putting Latin phrases on the tokens was believed to give them more credibility in the market place. Sometimes, though, the Latin didn't make much sense.

    Mind you, if it was genuinely Wellington's head on it then it is unlikely that it was genuinely issued in 1811. Although he was an important general at that time, he wasn't the public figure that he became after the battle of Waterloo in 1815. It could just be another example of the inaccuracies in such coinage. That's why the Latin shouldn't be taken too seriously.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2009
  9. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    Thanks for the info - very interesting. As for Wellington, a coin expert in the UK says that it is him and it is from 1811.

    Any help for the other questions -

    It's been a while, but "Love conquers all" would then be "Omnia Vincit amor"? And is there some reason the order in Latin would be as such, and not "Amor vincit omnia"?

    A dictionary says the "probus" would be upright, liberal, generous, which would fit somewhat with what I was looking for "good love (conquers all)".
    But is there a better word in Latin that would signify really good love, great love, the love we all hope for, search for?

    - or do I need to start another thread? thanks - gred
     
  10. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    Remember that word order in Latin is very free, and that neutral order is generally considered to be SOV. Deviations are thought to achieve some sort of emphasis or effect. In this case, Vergil may have delayed the subject to keep the reader in suspense until the last word. We must read to the very end to find out what "conquers all." I suppose another possibility is that he ordered the words in this way for the sake of the meter. Then again, perhaps both reasons are applicable--they certainly aren't mutually exclusive.

    I would call that "true love," which in Latin is amor verus.
     
  11. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    thanks starfrown - I didn't realize this was a quote from Vergil, which complete reads "Omnia vincit amor, et nos cedamus amori". I guess the whole thing in English would be "Love conquers all, and we surrender to love"?

    And true love, using your "verus" would lead to "omnia vincit amor verus"? for true love conquers all?

    thanks for all the assistance - gred
     
  12. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    cedamus is the first person plural present active subjunctive of cedere; here, I think it's a jussive subjunctive, so "let us surrender" would be the correct interpretation.

    That is correct.
     
  13. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    Thanks - you have been very helpful.

    I wish I had taken Latin in high school, but then again I studied French and German for years in high school and learned very little. I had to live in Spain 10 years and use Spanish every day to learn it.

    - gred
     
  14. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    I should also mention that it seems most believe "et" here to be functioning adverbially (short for "etiam"), not as a conjunction.

    Thus: "Let us, too, surrender to love"
     
  15. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    great! - thanks!

    Another question though - if I wanted the latin word for "good" as to apply to love, rather than "true", but the somewhat ambiguous "good" - could be true love, could be Godly love, could be great sex, etc - what would be the most appropriate latin word for that?

    - gred
     
  16. Stoicorum_simia Senior Member

    English (UK)
     
  17. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    It’s hard for me to say. I don’t even know for certain that there is a single Latin term with all of those possible meanings.

    I am not—and of course no one is any longer—a native speaker of Latin. I hesitate to give recommendations for words to be used in widely varying contexts. After all, finding the right word in a single context can be difficult enough. Whenever I give advice on this forum, I always check the extant corpus (preferably classical) to make sure that it attests to a given word or phrase in a given sense.

    With that disclaimer out of the way, I can tell you that the most general word for “good” is bonus. Also, I have been able to find examples of the phrase amor bonus, at least in medieval texts. There it seemed to mean “Godly love” or “pure love.” Of course, I can make no judgment on its full range of possible interpretations.

    Perhaps others here can shed some more light on it. Vale.
     
  18. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    thanks so much - these forums are so interesting!

    From your description, and disclaimer, I am sure bonus would fit exactly what I am looking for - something to fit with the Book of Good Love, a medieval book in Spanish, sprinkled with Latin. The term Good Love there also referred to God's love, although the erotic content makes some people wonder.

    If I wanted to take poetic license on Virgil's quote, would this placement of the two bonus be appropriate?

    Omnia vincit amor bonus, et nos cedamus amori bonus

    Or, is the second bonus out of place because love is a verb there - maybe an adverb is needed?
     
  19. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    No, both amor and amori are nouns. You should have:

    ...et nos cedamus amori bono
     
  20. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    thanks - to relate that to a similar latin quote -

    If I want to say "Now I know what good love is" -

    Nunc scio quid sit Amor bonus - is "bonus" the proper form and placed in the right place?
     
  21. Starfrown

    Starfrown Senior Member

    Columbia, SC
    English - US
    That would be correct. Here's a guide for matching bonus to the various forms of amor:

    SINGULAR
    nom. amor bonus
    gen. amoris boni
    dat. amori bono
    acc. amorem bonum
    abl. amore bono
    voc. amor bone

    PLURAL
    nom. amores boni
    gen. amorum bonorum
    dat. amoribus bonis
    acc. amores bonos
    abl. amoribus bonis
    voc. amores boni
     
  22. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    thanks again - slowly I'm picking up some of this - gred
     
  23. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    Well it has been suggested that "love conquers all" by Virgil referred to the fact that love can overcome anything, others suggest that it means everyone is subjugated by love, not necessarily in a positive manner. But I have just found another reference:

    "However, this 'all' is Neuter. Thus the meaning of the phrase is more philosophical: 'Love conquers all things, everything in existence'.

    Is this last one accurate in your opinion? Does the neuter imply this meaning?
     
  24. Stoicorum_simia Senior Member

    English (UK)
    Yes, this must be right. Though the speaker (Gallus in Eclogue 10) is primarily concerned with humans, the words mean everything in existence. We could compare the opening of Lucretius, De rerum natura (On the Universe) which evokes Venus as pervading everything - humans, animals, earth, the lot. It's been suggested that the phrase 'omnia vincit amor' might be Virgil quoting Gallus's own poetry.
     
  25. gred Senior Member

    USA English
    I found some more commentary on the love conquers all quote that was interesting - let me know if these sound reasonable -

    This statement takes the form of moving from a general maxim to the case at hand, usually by means of the phrase "and so you too". So that love conquers all is the general maxim, and let us too surrender is the application to the case at hand.

    Then, it is thought that as Gallus thinks how nice it would be to be a simple shepherd, he knows that this would not help his love for the woman who has left him, as love knows no cure. Pan tells the weeping Gallus that weeping will do no good, as "love can never be glutted with a lover's tears". And his application of the maxim is to yield to love - as there is really no choice - which was suggested to be actually "to die of his unrequited passion" and love.

    IN other words, if there is no satisfaction in his love, and there is no cure, he might as well die and end the suffering.
     
  26. Stoicorum_simia Senior Member

    English (UK)
    Yes, this all sounds reasonable to me. It is also interesting that this is the last of the Eclogues, and after Gallus's speech Virgil uses symbolic language to signal the end, and his intention to move on to other things. If love consumes its victims, nothing is left for it!
     
  27. Sassysheepdog New Member

    English
    Ok, I know I'm late to the party but, if someone else is looking this up like I did, here's something interesting - this motto 'love of country conquers' was inscribed on medals given to the three patriots who caught John Andre and saved West Point and the country from Benedict Arnold's treason.
     

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