von Zauberkunst stammend

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by Löwenfrau, Jan 6, 2014.

  1. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Sometimes Mauthner's style makes me dizzy... I have some doubts as to the phrase in blue:

    "Wenn die allgemein angenommene Etymologie richtig ist, so wendeten die Portugiesen ja ihr Wort feitiço (von facticius künstlich, vielleicht auch schon: von Zauberkunst stammend) auf die (für sie) lächerlichen und wundertätigen Puppen, Tiere und Gerätschaften an, die sie bei den Negern der Westküste als Gegenstände der Verehrung vorfanden." (Mauthner)

    From it I understand that: the Portuguese word feitiço traces back to [the Latin word] facticius (German künstlich),
    the trouble is what comes next:
    and maybe even to Zauberkunst. ?
    and maybe it traces back even to Zauberkunst?

    I don't understand this construction, because apparently he was talking about the origin of a word from another word, and then he starts talking about the thing itself (the art of magic)... How come?
     
  2. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    may be it may even be derived from "Zauberkunst"
    (Not to but from ...)

    So it is your second one:
    and maybe it traces back even to Zauberkunst?

    As far as I understand Mautner means the concept "Zauberkunst"
    It may be traced back to a word meaning "Zauberkunst"
    So you may translate it to "sourcery/art of a wizard"
    rather than leave it German.
     
  3. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    Thanks for the answer, Hutschi.
     
  4. bearded man

    bearded man Senior Member

    Milan
    Italian
    Hello
    ''vielleicht auch schon: von Zauberkunst stammend''
    Für mich ist das Wort 'schon' wichtig:
    'feitiço..., a word perhaps already originating from the art of sorcery''.
    In my opinion, it means the Portuguese 'transferred' a word, which probably was already used in performances by wizards, to the definition of idols (wundertätige Puppen...).
     
  5. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    BM, thanks for pointing that out; I understand your point and have this feeling too... But one thing confuses me a bit: the fact that "auch schon" compound an expression, eine Redewendung, meaning "selbst" (in the sense of "gar", Engl. "even", "inclusively"); for example:

    "Da es darum geht,auch schon während der Übergangsperiode die Rechte für alle zu vereinheitlichen und die Inanspruchnahme von medizinischer Hilfe unabhängig davon, ob mit dem alten Formular oder mit der neuen Karte, zu vereinfachen, ..."

    "...
    fordert die Mitgliedstaaten auf, geschlechts atypische Beschäftigung (zum Beispiel mehr männliche Lehrkräfte in Primärschulen und mehr Frauen in der Wissenschaft) für junge Menschen zu fördern, auch schon bei Kindern, bevor sie das Alter erreichen, in dem Schlüsselentscheidungen bezüglich Bildung und Berufsleben getroffen werden..."

    "
    Der Rat hörte ferner einen Bericht von Herrn LIDBOM, dem Leiter des Wahldienstes der Europäischen Union, und stellte mit Befriedigung fest, daß der Dienst in der Lage wäre, seine Aufgaben auch schon bei vorgezogenen Wahlen wahrzunehmen. ..."

    In all these examples (from http://www.linguee.com.br/portugues-alemao/search?source=auto&query=auch+schon) the translation for "auch schon" is "even"/"inclusively".

    I'd like to here a native talking about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  6. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    Hi,
    as far as I see, "auch schon" combines the concepts of "auch bereits" and "sogar schon".
    I thought "even" comes near that is why I did not complain.

    So it has both a component of time - as early as/already - and astonishment about this fact.

    "already" has the time meaning but it misses the psychological part.
     
  7. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    I see. So the translation had better says:

    and it might inclusively/even traces back already to [the art of] magic already

    ?
     
  8. Hutschi

    Hutschi Senior Member

    Dresden, Universum
    German, Germany
    I do not understand the inclusively part well.

    I would say something like
    and it might furthermore even trace back already to [the art of] magic

    But I suppose there must be a better English sentence.
     
  9. PaulQ

    PaulQ Senior Member

    UK
    English - England
    In idiomatic English, schon (as a time reference) should be omitted - (... and, indeed, perhaps even stemming from '[the art of] magic '.)

    This is an interesting post:
     
  10. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    My suggested translation:

    ​from "facticius", which, besides meaning "artificial", may already have meant "of magical origin", too

    PS
    schon/already is clearly temporal: Already the Latin word "facticius", back in Roman times, may have had the second meaning "of magical origin", besides its dictionary meaning "artificial".
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2014
  11. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    SR,
    I was reading like the Portuguese word feitiço traces back to [the Latin word] facticius (German künstlich),
    and (still the Portuguese word feitiço) might trace back even to the art of magic.
    This is probably due to the fact that in Portuguese and in English you would usually add something more to indicate a changing on the subject of the phrase. He doesn't make it explicit. So, I thought that the first "von" and the second "von" related to the same relation, and that the "stammend" completed both of them.

    (I'm afraid I'm not being clear by lack of technical grammar vocabulary... ?)
     
  12. Schimmelreiter

    Schimmelreiter Senior Member

    Deutsch
    (von facticius künstlich, vielleicht auch schon: von Zauberkunst stammend)

    Mauthner puts brackets around this phrase. He comments on "facticius künstlich" like this: "vielleicht auch schon: von Zauberkunst stammend". He thereby adds, to the dictionary meaning of "facticius", i.e. "künstlich/artificial", his assumption that already the Latin word "facticius" may have had a second meaning, i.e. "von Zauberkunst stammend/of magical origin".

    The Portuguese used feitiço, as a noun, for the magical devices. This noun can't sensibly be described as "von Zauberkunst stammend/of magical origin". If your reading were correct, it would have to be described as something like "verzauberter Gegenstand" ("Gegenstand" being a noun).

    Hence, the adjectival epithet "von Zauberkunst stammend/of magical origin" can only be what Mauthner assumes may already have been another meaning ("vielleicht auch schon") of the Latin adjective "facticius", of which the generally known dictionary meaning is "künstlich".
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2014
  13. Löwenfrau

    Löwenfrau Senior Member

    São Paulo
    Brazilian Portuguese
    SR, thank you very much for the detailed explanation. Alles klar!
     

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