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voseo (origin of its distribution)

Discussion in 'Etymology, History of languages and Linguistics (EHL)' started by Thomas26, Oct 4, 2011.

  1. Thomas26

    Thomas26 Junior Member

    Georgia, USA
    English
    ¿¿Por qué el voseo es popular en Argentina, Paraguay y Uruguay.......de hecho no utilizan el "tú".........pero no es popular en Chile, Peru, Bolivia, Venezuela, etc.....??

    ¿Cuál es la razón que esos tres países lo utilizan? ¿Es de esas personas que colonizó la región?

    Muchas gracias
     
  2. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    In Uruguay both "tú" and "vos" are used. "Vos" is also used in other countries, including Chile, Bolivia, Colombia and some parts of Central America, although not to the same extent as in Argentina. I would be interested in knowing why it's most pervasive in Argentina.
     
  3. Thomas26

    Thomas26 Junior Member

    Georgia, USA
    English
    I didn't literally mean tú was non-existent, I understand it is still legal to use, but the question is why is the vos SO prevalent in these countries? Yes, it is used in certain areas of Colombia and maybe Chile and Bolivia, but no where near the extent of in Uruguay, Paraguay and Argentina. I would say the next closest country in terms of use of voseo would be from my experience Guatemala.

    So, was it from those who colonized the area? I imagine it must have sprung from that and not just randomly appeared on the scene one day.
     
  4. jmx

    jmx Senior Member

    Barcelona
    Spain / incorrect Spanish
    I don't think there is an easy, simple answer for your question. I've heard that in Chile voseo became unfashionable due to the popularity of the grammarian Andrés Bello, who disliked it. Another thing to take into account is which voseo areas are larger and what important cities irradiate it. In Argentina, Buenos Aires acts as a spreading center of voseo, with no other important cities able to counter its force in a huge area.
     
  5. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    Vos and were both present in Old Spanish, and originally vos was the formal form and tú, the very familiar form that was inappropriate in most situations. From there the usage of the 2nd person pronoun evolved in such a way that vos was used when speaking from below (in social status/rank) to those who were at an higher rank/social status, and the was for the other direction (HIGH TO LOW). Overtime that switched and vos was used only for the HIGH TO LOW direction of speech (you can see that in El Quijote) while a new formal pronoun became popular in Spain: Vuestra Merced (where the Spanish Usted or the Portuguese você come from). Having a 3rd pronoun relegated vos to an almost offensive or derogatory use. This is why in Spain vos disappears in the XIX century. The regions of the empire that had closer ties with the metropolis were following this same trend, but the most isolated regions, notably the River Plate basin, were rather alien to this process. Later on, some countries like Chile and Uruguay made attempts to eliminate the voseo from their dialects but maybe because of their proximity to Buenos Aires and its influence they were never able to get rid of the vos and today it coexists with tú.
     
  6. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    That's all true, but I still wonder why Buenos Aires became the epicenter of the voseo and not Lima or Bogotá or Mexico City.
     
  7. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    By the time the vos disappeared from peninsular Spanish, Buenos Aires was arguably the most remote place in the world, a frontier town, way less important culturally and economically than the other cities you mentioned. Until 1776 when it became the capital of the new Viceroyalty all official trade and communication with the outer world had to pass through Lima. BA was a mere military and illegal trade outpost. In fact, at the beginning of the XIX century BA was better connected to London than to Madrid. The majority of the population was criollo, i.e. born in the colony, which shows that BA didn't attract a lot of Spaniard emigrants.
     
  8. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    What I mean is, the other cities were more exposed to European influence, where the Spanish language was developing faster.
     
  9. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    That's interesting, but you still have to wonder why it didn't change, when in nearly 250 years it had plenty of opportunity to. People nearly everywhere don't even talk like they did 20 or 50 or 100 years ago, much less 250.
     
  10. alepre Senior Member

    argentina español
    Soy Argentino y sinceramente desconozco exactamente el origen del vos. Lo que es importante destacar es que el verbo con vos (en Argentina) tiene una conjugacion distinta de la forma española.

    Ej: Vos sois el mejor (Español) / Vos sos el mejor (Argentino)
     
  11. Thomas26

    Thomas26 Junior Member

    Georgia, USA
    English
    Me gusta la forma del verbo en Argentina......vos aprendrés, vos vivís, vos hablás, etc......
     
  12. Csalrais

    Csalrais Senior Member

    Tenerife
    Spanish - Spain
    Pero cuidado, ese es el uso antiguo que hoy en día solamente se ve en recreaciones históricas. En España actualmente no se usa nunca el vos como pronombre (excepto en las excepciones que mencioné en la frase anterior).
     
  13. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    Why do you think that a language must necessarily change a pronoun and all its associated verb conjugations? The language has changed of course, but it followed its own path. Another things that make Buenos Aires different are: #1. it did not receive a major migratory influx until the 20th century, #2. later, immigration happened en-mass, primarily from Italy.
     
  14. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    Because of exposure to other Spanish speakers. Bs As had plenty of opportunity to change, the way other formerly "voseo" areas did, yet it didn't.
    English underwent the same change, from "thou" to "you," although somewhat earlier.
     
  15. ampurdan

    ampurdan Modstachioed modnster

    jiā tàiluó ní yà
    Català & español (Spain)
    I guess the voseo has changed quite a lot during the centuries. From "vos cantáis" it changed to "vos cantás" in Argentina and Uruguay while in Chile it has ended up being "vo' cantái" -I think. Many combinations of "vos" and "tú" exist in these and other places. There is voseo in places as far as Central America and I recall that someone once said in these forums it even exists in some rural Mexican areas.

    It all suggests a wide spread of voseo in all or most of Spanish-speaking American in the past and its rather quick evolution to different forms everywhere.

    The fact that this is unheard of in present day Spain, with all its rural areas which keep very old traits in their manner of speech, makes me thing that the adoption of this vos for the informal everyday treatment with equals or lower ones is quite unique to Spanish-speaking America. But all this is just guesswork.

    But "thou" would be "tú" and "vos" would be "you", not the other way round.
     
  16. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    Ask the people of Smith Island, MA, why they still speak 17th century West Country England dialect even if they had plenty of opportunity to change being exposed to standard Eastern US accent. Ask the people of Quebec why their dialect is still the closest thing to 17th century Parisian dialect, didn't they have enough time to watch French movies?
     
  17. Peterdg

    Peterdg Senior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch - Belgium
    I don't know. The only thing I know is that the same phenomenon exists in Dutch. In Belgian Dutch, we still use the "old"/"traditional" singular second person (ge/gij) while in the Netherlands, they switched to the newer version "je/jij". As with the voseo, it also comes with a different verbal form.

    They have tried for years (actually, decades) to introduce the "newer" version in Belgium, but it just doesn't work. People resist. Some people in Belgium do use the new form, but for most of us, it sounds "affected", "not from us". While, let's say, 20 years ago, when they made a TV series in Belgium, they used the "newer" form, they now switched back to the original Belgian form because dialogues just sounded "weird", not natural. For some reason, the Belgian Dutch accent in combination with the "newer" form, doesn't work.

    Now, The Netherlands and Belgium are neighbouring countries and this harmonization doesn't work. Imagine how difficult that proces must be with a territory as big as the Spanish speaking community.
     
  18. autremoi Senior Member

    Toronto, ON, Canada
    Castellano Rioplatense
    Actually, the voseo is way less striking than other characteristics of the Rioplatense dialect, for example, the way we pronounce the y and ll, something in between an English sh and a French j.
     
  19. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    I wouldn't say so lightly that some dialect is like a 17 century anything... It may have a few remaining words, but not the whole language.

    Please, check the tons of older posts about 'voseo'...:rolleyes:
     
  20. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    Yes, there are tons of posts about the voseo, but I haven't seen one that addressed this specific aspect, of why it has persisted. All the stuff about the different waves of immigration doesn't seem too convincing, but I find Peterdg's observations about Dutch very apt. And something you said in another thread, "De chica me decían 'las señoritas hablan de tú'", also explains some things for me :D
     
  21. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    Es una buena pregunta. Te deseo suerte con tus investiaciones.
    Es curioso como el español de México, Argentina y España (los tres focos más influyentes desde mi punto de vista) han evolucionado de un modo ligeramente diferente.
    Yo lo relaciono con el tipo de inmigración que han recibido estos paises. Desconozco el tema en profundiad, pero creo que la imigración de europeos a Argentina ha sido más heterogenea (variada) que en otros países latinoamericanos, de modo que, aunque finalmente el español consiguió imponerse a otros idiomas, lo ha hecho con características propias.
    Es evidente, por ejemplo, la musicalidad que el español de Argentina ha tomado del idioma italiano. (La colonia italiana ha sido muy importante en Argentina)
    Por ello, y es solo una hipótesis, es posible que para los europeos que llegaron de otros países diferentes de España, hubiese formas verbales y pronunciaciones, más cercanas al italiano o al francés (fr:vous-->esp:vos) que le resultasen más cómodas de usar, y que finalmente terminaron por consolidarse.

    Es solo una reflexión. Espero que consigas nuevas pistas y que las compartas con nosotros.
    Un saludo desde España.
     
  22. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    It seems clear that the Argentinians perceive the "voseo" as a sign of identity that are not willing to resign.
    So I think just them can help us to know when it started this self identification with the voseo.
    It would be interesting to find the fist record mentioning the identification that we all do between the voseo and Argentina, so we could find what elements influenced on this phenomenon.
     
  23. alfajor Senior Member

    Bs. As., Firenze, NYC
    el castellano argentino, italiano, English
    El venezolano, Andrés Bello (1781-1865), el primer rector de la Universidad de Chile, condenó el empleo del voseo y llevó a cabo una campaña en favor del tuteo.

    N.B.
    El voseo se encuentra en todos los países de habla hispana, menos ES, DO y PR.
     
  24. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    Ya se ha mencionado a Andrés Bello con anterioridad. Lo que queda pendiente es saber por qué (y en qué momento) en Argentina se apostó tan decididamente por el voseo, y su característica conjugación de la 2ª persona. ¿Fue casual, intencionado, tuvo influencias externas, hay algún tipo de apuesta por diferenciarse de otros países hispanohablantes?
    (que quede claro que no critico su uso, sólo me interesa saber el mecanismo en que los idiomas se van disgregando)
     
  25. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Es muy difícil contestar esa pregunta. Se fue dando y quedando. No conozco datos del mecanismo.

    En wiki hay una reseña (con un mapa donde se ve que se usa en un área enorme), pero no contesta exactamente tu pregunta.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voseo
     
  26. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    Hay mucha información aqui: http://lema.rae.es/dpd/?key=vos
     
  27. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Si, hay información, pero no historia. Suponemos que el 'vos' viene de la zona de donde hubo más emigración (andaluces?).
     
  28. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    Este dato es interesante. Cuando dices la zona ¿Hablas de Uruguay?
     
  29. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    Te doy toda la razón, pero hay mucha información sobre las diferentes manifestaciones del fenómeno, y se me ocurrió que podría ser de interés.

    Según lo que he leído--y confieso que no soy experto en el asunto--hay que considerar muchos factores, principales entre ellos la inmensidad del territorio, el aislamiento de ciertas regiones y la evolución lingüística que ocurría en España durante la época de la exploración y conquista del llamado 'Nuevo Mundo'.

    Que yo sepa, había contacto más o menos frecuente entre España, el caribe y México durante la época en la cual dejaba de usarse el vos en España. El resultado de tal contacto fue que también dejó de usarse primero en aquellas regiones de las Américas. El contacto con el interior, con el Cono Sur y ciertas regiones de Centroamérica, en cambio, no se efectuaba con tanta frecuencia, así que había áreas en las que predominaba el lenguaje de los exploradores del siglo XVI. Sabemos que el proceso de exploración, dominación y colonización de las Américas nunca fue uniforme. En mi opinión--y no es más que opinión--la historia del voseo en América Latina es el resultado de esa falta de uniformidad.



    Un saludo
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  30. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    Este breve comentario es de Resnick y Hammond, Introducción a la historia de la lengua española, 2a edición, pp. 183-84.

    "En los siglos XVI y XVII vos llegó a dominar como pronombre de tratamiento directo a familiares y a inferiores en las zonas rurales, y entre soldados. Esta es la forma de tratamiento llevado a gran parte del Nuevo Mundo por los Conquistadores. Al dirigir la palabra a los indios, los trataban de vos por considerarlos como inferiores. En España, en cambio, vos tomó ortro derrotero: a partir del siglo XVIII se estigmatizó y cayó en desuso debido al carácter despectivo que había adquirido y como consecuencia de la asociación con el habla de las capas más bajas de la sociedad española."

    [. . .]


    "Con la decadencia del singular vos como forma de respeto, se acuñó en el siglo XV la expresión vuestra merced. En el siglo XVII se contrajo, tras varios pasos intermediarios, a vuasted y vusted. Con la pérdida de la v- tenemos el pronombre personal moderno usted. . . . "

    Me parece lógico, teniendo en cuenta la decadencia de España durante los siglos XVI y XVII, que hubiera menos contacto lingüístico entre la madre patria y las regiones más aisladas y lejanas de las Américas. ¿No podemos suponer, entonces, que esas regiones no partipaban del mismo desarrollo lingüístico que impactaba las áreas que eran más accesibles a un contacto más o menos regular con España?

    Saludos
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  31. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    Muy interesante donbill toda esta información.
    En mi opinión, que la enormidad de continente americano y su creciente población influyen en un desarrollo lingüístico desigual resulta lógico.
    Pero no creo que esa sea razón suficiente, puesto que, de hecho, la uniformidad entre el español de España y de Argentina es considerable, incluso mayor que la que pueda haber entre España y México.
    Parece demostrado que hubo diferentes intentos de reprimir el uso del vos en el cono sur, y que como reacción, primero entre las clases más humildes y luego por el resto de la sociedad, especialmente en Argentina, que además fue una potencia económica a mitades del siglo XX, pudo haberse usado como herramienta de rebeldía y de identidad nacional, este uso del vos desdeñado por los españoles llegados masivamente tras la guerra.
    Todo es una hipótesis que propongo, pero es curioso como a veces también en el idioma se intentan levantar muros y extender fronteras.
     
  32. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    No acepto tu teoría de que el argentino se parece al español más que el mexicano, así al barrer. Las diferencias se dan en áreas semánticas ;y gramaticales diferentes, y tambi'en las similitudes. Y no hay un solo ' español', como no hay un único 'argentino'.
    De paso, cuando dije ' emigrantes', me refería por supuesto a lugares de España, que son los que proveyeron los 'emigrantes'. En América, se transformarían inmediatamente en 'inmigrantes'. Se supone que una gran mayoría de inmigrantes en Uruguay eran específicamente de Andalucía y Canarias (pero hay también gallegos, catalanes, vascos, etc.). La pronunciación de la 's' viene de Andalucía, no?
     
  33. donbill

    donbill Senior Member / Moderator

    South Carolina / USA
    English - American
    Hipótesis: la palabra clave, sin duda. :)

    Ya se han dedicado libros al tema, y me imagino se escribirán muchos más. Pero es fascinante, ¿no?

    Un saludo muy cordial
     
  34. Quique Alfaro

    Quique Alfaro Senior Member

    Santa Fe, Argentina
    castellano
    Hola:

    Muy interesantes las citas que has puesto don Bill.

    En cuanto a lo que sugiere quijotear sobre la resistencia... humm... no sé. Yo no recuerdo que ningún grupo haya levantado el vos como bandera de rebeldía, ni tampoco he oído mencionar que se haya registrado algo así en algún momento de nuestra historia.

    El vos estaba más que instalado en Argentina entre las clases escolarizadas ya en los albores del siglo XIX. Al menos en lo oral. Eso evidentemente es muy difícil de cambiar. Un enlace interesante para el que quiera leer al respecto.

    Que hubo intentos de imponer el no me cabe duda, la conjugación de vos no aparecía en los textos escolares. Recién en 1982 la Academia Argentina de Letras reconoció oficialmente que el vos era lo estándar y que el sólo se usaba en muy pocas partes de Argentina.
    No creo que nunca el voseo haya sido una forma de rebelarse... era lo que usaban casi todos y es muy difícil cambiar eso. El maestro o la maestra estaba obligado a usar el en el aula (circa 1950) pero apenas salían hablaban de vos con sus colegas. El vos estaba ya muy metido, no había forma de arrancarlo. Y el se consideraba (y se considera) altisonante y afectado.

    Tampoco los doblajes (todos usan ) han podido cambiar la forma en que habla la gente.

    Saludos.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2013
  35. jert

    jert New Member

    english
    thnx for a link. i dont know about that. really usefull.
     
  36. Quique Alfaro

    Quique Alfaro Senior Member

    Santa Fe, Argentina
    castellano
    Hola:

    Creo duvija se refiere a los conquistadores (s. XVI) no a los inmigrantes (ss. XIX y XX). Y los de la conquista eran en su mayoría del sur de España, ellos trajeron la s en lugar de la z o ce y la dejaron establecida en toda América.

    Saludos.
     
  37. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    She said she was talking about immigrants.

    After the "Guerra Grande" there was a steady rise in the number of immigrants, above all from Italy and Spain. The number of immigrants had risen from 48% of the population in 1860 to 68% in 1868. In the 1870s, a further 100,000 Europeans arrived, so that by 1879 about 438,000 people were living in Uruguay, a quarter of them in Montevideo.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Uruguay
     
  38. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Yes, I was referring to the immigrants. In some historic(al) linguistics books, they say the majority of immigrants were from Galicia and Andalucía.
     
  39. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    Galicia and Andalusia are about as far from each other as you can get and still be in Spain. Do they have a lot in common linguistically?
    What struck me was that the immigrant population was not really very large, meaning that a relatively small number of people could have a noticeable influence.
     
  40. Peterdg

    Peterdg Senior Member

    Belgium
    Dutch - Belgium
    Nothing whatsoever. Galician has a lot in common with Portuguese and has, of course, also an influence on the Spanish that is spoken there. (language substrate)
     
  41. duvija

    duvija Senior Member

    Chicago
    Spanish - Uruguay
    Well, remember that the non-immigrants (in Uruguay) were originally from Spain anyway.
    I've never understood the reasons given for the different 'Spanish dialects in the Americas', related to the majority of immigrants in a certain area. We got tons of 'canarios', ' catalanes', ' vascos' , etc. but the books talk about Andalusians.
     
  42. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    The seseo is supposed to come from Andalusia and the voseo is supposed to be a generalized rural thing, or what ...?
    Quique's link in #34 just says letters show that the voseo was in continuous use among the ruling class of Buenos Aires, contrary to claims that it was a "low" form that was reinstated under Rosas. One of the sources is a lady originally from Peru, raising the question of why the voseo stuck in BsAs and not in Lima.
     
  43. Quique Alfaro

    Quique Alfaro Senior Member

    Santa Fe, Argentina
    castellano
    Hola:

    Una aclaración: El Alto Perú no es Perú. El Alto Perú coincide más o menos con la actual Bolivia y era parte del Virreinato del Río de la Plata.

    Saludos.
     
  44. k-in-sc

    k-in-sc Senior Member

    OK, thanks, I didn't know that!
     
  45. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    Sephardic Jews don't have voseo, so I wouldn't say "tú" is too new... We do say "tu sos" however and not "tu eres". Note that sois (for vosotros) is the plural form of sos, form-wise.

    T
    ú estás
    Vosotros est
    áis
    T
    ú hablas
    Vosotros habl
    áis
    Tú sos
    Vosotros sois

    In Muestro Espanyol:
    Tu (e)stas
    Vozotros estash
    Tu avlas
    Vozotros avlash
    Tu sos
    Vozotros sosh
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2014
  46. quijotear Junior Member

    England
    spanish
    Apasionante!! Yuzer. Para mí el sefardí es un gran desconocido y encuentro una gran aportación lo que nos comentas.
     
  47. merquiades

    merquiades Senior Member

    France
    USA Northeast
    When vuestra merced (usted) became established as the preferred form of respect, vos lost its formal connotations. Devoid of that in certain areas it naturally mixed with with which there was no longer any difference in meaning. When you drop the "i" of many of the historic vos forms, there is no difference with in most of the conjugations, excepting irregular verbs like "eres/sois". From then on vos was gradually eliminated in favor of in Spain. The hybrid forms "vos-tú" were transmitted to Latin America and in many areas were eventually replaced with as well, except Argentina, Uruguay etc.

    Tú sos is totally in harmony with the time period of 1492... Do you all say Tú ávlas or Tú avlás in Sephardic?
     
  48. Yuzer Junior Member

    Hebrew
    The first one. And thanks for the input!
     

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