wait for the bus

Discussion in 'Nederlands (Dutch)' started by Tamar, Mar 30, 2011.

  1. Tamar

    Tamar Senior Member

    Israel, Hebrew
    Hi guys!

    I'm doing my homework and I have a question about the word order of a sentence there (it's a passage about someone taking the metro and bus to classe).

    The sentence is:

    Ik stap uit bij het station Blaak. Daar moet ik 5 minuten wachten op de bus.

    Shouldn't it be: ...daar moet ik 5 minuten op de bus wachten.

    Or maybe I'm over using this form (= second verb at the end) ?
  2. Peterdg

    Peterdg Senior Member

    Dutch - Belgium
    Both are correct. Don't ask me why, it just is:D
  3. papeheimers Member

    The Netherlands/Brussels
    English & Dutch

    Now that you've mentioned it. Although both are indeed used interchangably it makes me wonder... Some how when taken strictly, to me it seems there is a difference and that actually the first is the only one that's really correct.

    Sentence A means what it's supposed to: you have to wait 5 minutes for the bus to arrive. Since to wait for = wachten op

    The second sentence, B, if taken literally could convey more of a double meaning, since it could also mean: you have to wait 5 minutes on top of the bus.

    Though luckily not many people will interpret it this way and I guess that's why we do use both forms.

    The difference comes about because when spoken, in word order B there seems to be an automatic (though very little) stress on the position where the prepostion (the word "op") is placed.

    Maybe I can clarify with some other examples:

    A: Ik moet 5 minuten staan voor de deur. (= not correct)
    B: Ik moet 5 minuten voor de deur staan.

    A: Ik moet 5 minuten lopen achter de grasmaaier.(= not correct)
    B: Ik moet 5 minuten achter de grasmaaier lopen.

    It seems when the meaning of the sentence is to emphasize the position (by the use of a preposition) that under all circumstances we need to use option B.

    But when we don't need the position to be emphasized, because although using a preposition the sentence is ment to convey another meaning then that of location or position (or when some verb is used in stead of a preposition), then it seems we can choose to turn it around to form the word order in option A or nonetheless still use option B, like is the case with the bus sentences you proposed.

    But I'm sure it certainly doesn't go for all prepositions or cases that aren't ment to be literal, since. for example, if we use a saying or expression the word order does follow B, although no literal meaning of position is ment.

    For example:

    Voor paal staan = To look like a fool

    Note: I don't know if this is really the way it works, but it's an explanation that seems to hold in a lot of cases. :)
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2011
  4. Beninjam Senior Member

    British English
    Busje komt zo! ;)
  5. Tamar

    Tamar Senior Member

    Israel, Hebrew
    Papeheimers, I must say it's pretty good idea, I like it.

    Beninjam, you have a point (btw, didn't think anyone would ever add '-je' to the word bus :) Dutch is so cute :D)
  6. Beninjam Senior Member

    British English
    Song sung by Paul de Leeuw about 15 yrs ago mocking the organization of a needle exchange bus for drug users.
    Try watching "De wereld draait door" on Dutch TV for tips on modern Dutch usage. As a non-native I find it difficult to follow, but my Belgian kids think it's a hoot.
  7. George French Senior Member

    English - UK
    The diminutive je is attachable to just about anything.

    Meisje, busje, autootje, ijsje, hondtje; varkentje;

    It's not cute: the only real advantage to the (t)je is that it is a het woordje. Unfortunately you have know whether to put the t in front of the j or not.

  8. Lopes

    Lopes Senior Member

    Dutch (Amsterdam)

    And it is very cute... :p
  9. Beninjam Senior Member

    British English
    The diminutives in Dutch do sometimes pose difficulties for the translator though.
    Do you have to signal the diminutive in "tas" "tasje", for example.
    Where's the line to be drawn in "scheet", "scheetje" for example (do we talk about cute little farts?).
    A drop of cream in your coffee, but in English I doubt if we would ever talk of a droplet of milk (wolkje).
    But perhaps the defect is in English rather than in Dutch, as in English we seem to have few active diminutive forms and virtually no augmentatives.
  10. George French Senior Member

    English - UK
    Which definition of cute are you using?

    It nothing more than a language feature... :tick:

  11. Tamar

    Tamar Senior Member

    Israel, Hebrew
    I love DWDD although it is very difficult to follow (and don't forget Mooi! Weer de Leeuw which was impossible. Don't think I've ever heard anyone speak so fast).

    No, but it doesn't mean that the -tje suffix is no longer cute - there's something really sweet about it and the fact that you add it to just any word (but it's okay - it's just me being weird anyway).

    And it's true it's not easy to predict if it's -je or -tje, though I always think there must be a phonetic explanation on how to do it.
  12. George French Senior Member

    English - UK
    We have a large vocabulary......

    Lots of milk.
    Some milk means not too much.
    A drop of milk means even less and a dash milk does mean very little milk.

    Often the quantity of milk is signalled by the distance between the thumb and the finger. We do use a lot of sign language for this. Speach is not needed...

    Nevertheless the diminutive can be quite useful in Dutch. "Geef mij maar een kleintje". Ik kreeg altijd een grote! Ze wisten me te goed. :D

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2011
  13. luitzen Senior Member

    Frisian, Dutch and Low Saxon
    op de bus is a so called voorzetselvoorwerp (prepositional object) and the order can be changed at free will. This is because you're always waiting for someone/something (this is not entirely correct because you can also just wait).
    In the examples with the lawnmower and the door, the preposition and the noun form an adverbial and the order is fixed (verb-adverbial).

    If the preposition refers to a location, the combination becomes an adverbial (e.g. achter de grasmaaier, voor de deur) if the preposition does not refer to a location, the combination is a voorzetselvoorwerp (e.g. op de bus) and the verb and the voorzetselvoorwerp (which functions as an object) can change place.

    The change of the position of the verb and voorzetselvoorwerp changes the meaning of the sentence. When the verb comes first, the verb is most important, when the voorzetselfvoorwerp comes first, the voorzetselvoorwerp is most important.

    Daar moet ik 5 minuten wachten op de bus.
    Can mean that you are annoyed you have to wait for the bus. If you instruct someone to wait for the bus you may also use this sentence. "Don't leave if you don't see a bus, because you have to wait 5 minutes before it arrives".

    Daar moet ik 5 minuten op de bus wachten.
    This sentence specifically means you are waiting for the bus, not for the train or subway.
  14. papeheimers Member

    The Netherlands/Brussels
    English & Dutch
    I can give you two tips:

    1. Words ending with a d will never get the "tje" form it will always be just "je": so the correct je-form of, among others, hond wil become hondje ;)

    2. Words that end on a vowel like indeed auto always get one extra of that exact same vowel and will get "tje": autootje, cafeetje*, kadootje, slaatje etc etc.

    * also words that use an accent aigu will lose this in writing when the diminutive form is used.
  15. George French Senior Member

    English - UK
    Dank je wel.

  16. Knateltje Member

    You're comletely right! I think "op de bus wachten" is even used more commonly than "wachten op de bus" in spoken language.

    For the other problem,
    every noun ending on a plosive (like t, k and p) and the nouns ending on an -s get the suffix -je because we can't put mor inbetween.
    Words ending on an -m get an extra p. Boom - boompje, but I can't think of other examples.
    Also you have this option:
    bon - bonnetje
    kan - kannetje
    slang - slangetje

    I hope this makes the problem a bit more clear.
  17. tx3amigos New Member

    t o George French (or anyone)....what does the word Treintje mean? And from these posts does tje mean" little" or"rather implies "cute little"?
    Treintje was a great grand mother's name....trying to find the meaning of it. Also would her name have been Trein with tje added or Treint with the je added? They were from Holland.......thanks to anyone who can help
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2011
  18. Kayla321

    Kayla321 Senior Member

    Dutch (NL)
    I think this should be a separate question/thread. :S

    Trijntje (with ij, not ei!) as a name has nothing to do with trains. It just sounds the same. :) It's from Catharina (pure, blessed). I think Trijn-without-tje does not occur, but then it would be Trijn, not Trijnt.

    Yes, -tje is little. It can be cute, but it doesn't have to be.
  19. tx3amigos New Member

    Thanks Kayla (didn't mean to hijack the post). I have seen her name also spelled Tryjntje only once...so I think your explaination is the right one. Spelling must have gotten messed up in later years or when she immigrated here. ( a family puzzle solved) Thanks again..anita
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2011
  20. sunsail Senior Member

    de langue Turc
    As far as I know both can be used.If you put the verb at the end when you use modal verb,it is germanic style.if you speak german you see it well.
    but if you don't it does not matter.

    I think dutch is in germanic language group.Once I talked to a dutch guy and he told me that in 50s-60s the organization,it is authorized to make decisions on the changes on dutch language,decided to change the structures that came from german language and directed language to english side.Dutch language still has german style grammar usages.like this.if you speak both english and german you may understand what I mean.
    I do not know whether there is website that shows the similarities between dutch and german language.that ll be more helpful.

    If someone knows the history of dutch language better,can correct me or englighten us with details.


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