wh questions + past participle

Discussion in 'Spanish-English Grammar / Gramática Español-Inglés' started by Regina Jarquin, Jun 29, 2007.

  1. Regina Jarquin New Member

    Nicaragua
    Hola, estoy confundida con la forma en que se deben hacer las wh questions usando past participle. Por ejemplo es correcto que yo diga:

    1. When was founded Chile?
    2. Who wrote "Beloved"?
    3. When were used the first computer?
    4. Where is located Acapulco?

    Les agradeceria mucho su ayuda para saber como es que debo hacer dichas preguntas.
     
  2. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
     
  3. apathet Senior Member

    Phoenix, Arizona, USA
    USA (English)
    1. When was Chile founded?
    2. Correct.
    3. When was the first computer used?
    4. Where is Acapulco located? (you can also say "where is Acapulco"?

    La verdad no sé cómo explicarte cómo se determina el uso del participio en inglés, pero me parece que el participio tiene que ir después del sujeto. No sé si esa regla siempre funciona... a ver qué dicen los demás.
     
  4. flaquitacarola Senior Member

    La Serena
    Chile
    To be (auxiliary verb) + the Object/ subject + verb in PP

    De todas maneras que este hilo debería ir en el Foro de Gramática
    http://forum.wordreference.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22
     
  5. unicito Senior Member

    spanish
    Coo se llama esa expresion gramatica?
     
  6. Regina Jarquin New Member

    Nicaragua
    Hola, respondiendo la pregunta de Unicito, la expresión gramatica sería: Preguntas formuladas con Wh (Who, What, Where, When) junto con el pasado participio.
     
  7. unicito Senior Member

    spanish
    A lo que me referia era a q funcion tienen q seha direferente a las preguntas normales
     
  8. Outsider Senior Member

    Portuguese (Portugal)
    En inglés se llama wh-movement. En español no sé. ¡Pero este es un término muy técnico!
     
  9. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    Regina Jarquin,
    En inglés hay una regla de la gramática que prescribe que en una pregunta directa el nominativo deba seguir inmediatamente al verbo - y no importa que la palabra interrogativa comience o no con "Wh".
    Cuando el verbo va seguido de un participio, esta regla hace por supuesto que verbo y participio se hallen separados en una pregunta semejante.
    Por ejemplo
    The museum is called "El Prado" (afermaciòn directa)
    What is the museum called? (pregunta directa).

    Me parece que una tale regla no exista en castellano.

    Pido perdòn por mi castellano algo raquítico.

    Best wishes
    Virgilio
     
  10. Askaks

    Askaks Senior Member

    Querétaro, México
    Spanish - Mexico
    No es gran problema. La pregunta es igual en todos los casos. Sea voz activa o pasiva.

    WH- + Aux + Subject + Verb + Complement.(si es necesario)

    Aff. = "Acapulco is located in Mexico" Aff. = "He is staying in Acapulco"
    WH- = "Where is Acapulco located?" WH- = "Where is he staying?"

    WHO es la excepción. Como WHO pregunta por el sujeto, no se debe incluir en la pregunta. Como no sabemos quién realiza la acción, generalmente se pregunta en tercera persona del singular.
    El orden de una pregunta con WHO es:

    WHO + verb + Complement.(si es necesario)

    Who wrote beloved? Who ate my sandwich? Who stays with me?

    I hope this was useful.
     
  11. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    Askaks,
    Es muy interesante que usted califique de "verbo" el participio - por lo menos si he entendido justamente lo que usted a escrito.
    Según mis conocimientos de la sintáctica internacional los participios son adjetivos. Por supuesto que son derivados de verbos pero no debemos por esa razòn cocncluir que son "verbos".
    Consideremos por ejemplo las gelatinas (I don't know if this is the right word in Spanish but I mean the kind of jelly that people eat as dessert courses)
    Sigo en inglés, si usted no tiene inconveniente:
    Imagine that we were preparaing an orange-flavoured jelly and that it were possible to set the jelly in exactly the shape of an orange. A guest at the table might examine it and say "It looks like an orange, it smells like an orange, it feels like an orange, it tastes like an orange> It's an orange!"
    But the guest would, of course, be wrong.
    Participles are like verb-flavoured adjectives; they may display at times several properties of verbs (attracting objects and other adverbs even through the 'outer shell', so to speak, of the adjective in which they are encased) but on the outside - which is where it counts from the point of view of syntax - participles remain adjectives.
    As Shakespeare says; "All's not gold that glitters"

    Best wishes,
    Virgilio
     
  12. Askaks

    Askaks Senior Member

    Querétaro, México
    Spanish - Mexico
    I was, of course, talking about the position of a verb and it is a verb in use not really an adjective.
    Participle forms of verbs sometimes act as adjectives which doesn't mean necessarily this ones we're referring to are functioning as verbs or as adjectives.
    Their functions are totally different from what I wanted to show as word order.

    Take for instance, "I have studied for a long time"
    "studied" is a past participle verb form functioning as a verb, whereas in
    "This sentence is already used", "used" is a past participle verb form functioning as an adjective.
    You can see the same thing happening with present participle forms of verbs. :)

    Thanks for your comments.
     
  13. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    Askaks,
    Thank you for your interesting reply. Perhaps I could express better what I meant by asking you to answer a simple question, if you wouldn't mind.
    How many verbs are there in the following sentence:

    "If I had been warned about the danger, I would never have gone there"
    .
    I think we would both agree that this sentence is a simple hypothetical conditional sentence containing a protasis and an apodosis (2 clauses).
    It seems to me that if you find more than 2 verbs, you will have a syntax problem.
    Don't you agree?

    Best wishes
    Virgilio
     
  14. Askaks

    Askaks Senior Member

    Querétaro, México
    Spanish - Mexico
    "If I had been warned about the danger, I would never have gone there"

    This is a hypothetical conditional sentence or also called 3rd conditional sentence, formed by 2 clauses.
    In the first clause you can see and easily distinguish 3 verb forms:

    HAD = past form of verb HAVE which is functioning as the auxiliary for Past perfect tense.
    BEEN = Past participle form of verb BE which is functioning as part of the Past Perfect tense formation.
    WARNED = Past form of verb WARN which is functioning as an adjective causing the creation of a passive voice since the subject and object of the action is the very same one.

    The first clause contains all the elements necessary to have a well ordered sentence which is attached to the second clause which by itself has a well structured order, too. The second clause contains 2 verb forms:

    HAVE = Simple form or the verb HAVE which is functioning as an auxiliary for the Present perfect tense necessary for the second clause.
    GONE = Past participle form of the verb GO which is functioning as the main verb in the Present Perfect tense.
    Now, the question could be, what is WOULD?
    "Would" is a modal verb auxiliary necessary for the third conditional which is attached to the second clause auxiliary.

    Therefore, no sintax problem whatsoever.
    Syntax for an affirmative 3rd conditional:

    IF + Subject + Aux. Verb + Verb (P.P.)+ Compl.+ , (FIRST CLAUSE)

    + Subject + Would + Aux. Verb + Verb (P.P.) + Compl. (SECOND CLAUSE)

    I won't explain what "never" is cause I'm tired. Maybe another day.
    :D
     
  15. virgilio Senior Member

    English UK
    Askaks,
    Thank you. So how many verbs are there in this two-clause sentence? You mention several 'verb-forms' but you don't say how many verbs there are.
    I know perfectly well, of course, that the sentence is well-formed but thanks anyway for the compliment!
    Of one word in the second clause (the apodosis) you say:
    " GONE = Past participle form of the verb GO which is functioning as the main verb in the Present Perfect tense."
    and then you go on to say:
    " "Would" is a modal verb auxiliary ".

    So it seems that you hold the view that a clause can contain more than one verb. Interesting! But is there in your view of syntax any limit to the number of verbs ( not verb-forms) which a clause or sentence can validly contain?

    Best wishes
    Virgilio
     
  16. janecito

    janecito Senior Member

    Γρανάδα, Ισπανία
    Slovene, Slovenia
    Yo no diría que WHO fuera una excepción. Lo que pasa es que las frases 1, 3 y 4 son preguntas en voz pasiva (o sea compuesta por el auxiliar "to be" y un participio pasado), mientras que el ejemplo 3 está en voz activa (sí en "Past Tense" pero voz activa) — por eso no tiene auxiliar. WROTE no es "past participle", sino la forma de "past tense" de WRITE — "past participle" sería WRITTEN. Si construyéramos la pasiva de esta frase, la estructura sería la misma:

    Who was this novel written by?

    Claro, como la interrogación se refierre al sujeto, hay que añadir el "by".

    PS: En general se trata de distinguir entre las formas simples (I write, he wrote, etc.) y compuestas (it was built, he is singing, he has bought, etc.) no entre las formas activas y pasivas (en este caso las dos cosas coinciden).
     
  17. janecito

    janecito Senior Member

    Γρανάδα, Ισπανία
    Slovene, Slovenia
    Despés de haber pensado un poco más en esto, estoy de acuerdo contigo — WHO es una excepción, como dices, por preguntar por el sujeto. En el ejemplo que he dado antes WHO ya no pregunta por el sujeto por ser una pasiva. Sí que pregunta por el agente pero ese en la pasiva desempeña la función del objeto. No estoy seguro, pero tengo la sensación de que mi frase ni siquiera es 100% gramatical y debería ser: Whom was that novel written by. Bueno, pero como la diferencia entre WHO y WHOM en el inglés contemporáneo ya no se respeta tan estrictamente... No sé...
     
  18. Lord Caín(original one)

    Lord Caín(original one) Junior Member

    Spanish
    hi virgilio,

    I've read your post, although I haven't understood yet.
    how many verbs are in this sentence?

    thanks in advance.
     

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