What does the lonely "s" mean?

Discussion in 'Magyar (Hungarian)' started by Frederic_Bastiat, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Frederic_Bastiat New Member

    Portuguese - Brazilian
    Sziasztok! =)

    What's the lonely "s" in this sentence means?

    "s hittük nem véletlen volt, s egy életre szól."

    Köszönöm. =D
     
  2. Olivier0 Senior Member

    Toulouse
    français - France
    This s is an old or local form of és "and".
    -- Olivier
     
  3. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    Remark: the "s" is not so much "old and local"... it is rather either used (orally) more frequently in the Eastern part of Hungarian usage (especially by the Székely, in Transylvania) or everywhere, in literature (specially in poetry), in a written form.
     
  4. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    It is used by poets, in order to match the count of syllables in the subsequent lines.
     
  5. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    "s vannak" does not sound poetic what's more it sounds vulgar. What do you think?
    pl.:"Sok ingyenesen hirdető oldal van, s vannak speciálisan mezőgazdasági oldalak..."
     
  6. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    It doesn't have to be always poetic, Encolpius.:) (By the way, my source is the usual Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv.)
     
  7. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    I have never seen the single s in place of és in present-time texts, except in crosswords. It causes jamming of consonants.
    S is not a recommended substitute of és, like e of y in Spanish before words beginning with i.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2014
  8. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
     
  9. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    I hope you do not find Nepszabadság an archaic text, here are some examples from the headlines:

    "Együtt-PM: a kormány alszik, s nyakunkon a cián?"
    "Hadakozik, s nem fizet a kormány a kirúgott közszolgáknak"
    "Az MSZP vizsgálatot indít, s ha kell, feljelentést tesz"

    and many many other examples.
     
  10. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    Hát ez tényleg nem archaikus forrás, de modoros. Hány másodpercet nyert a cikkíró lapzárta előtt az é kihagyásával?
    Ráadásul rosszak a kötőszavak:
    A helyesek:
    ... amikor
    ... de [csakazértsem]
    ... mivel
     
  11. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    I am not saying that the "s"-s are used in a clear way (in the examples above) but I have difficulty in accepting frank's suggestions because I don't really know what the real intentions were.
    My hunch is this:1) miközben 2) és 3) és because it is true that the "s" does not fit well. For it me it wants to sound "elevated" meanwhile the topic is not of that nature at all.
     
  12. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    I have remembered that S is not the short counterpart of ÉS in the modern - not poetic - usage.
    ÉS means simple logical AND. In the abstract sentence A ÉS B the A and B words or subordinate clauses have equal value. Their order is not important. It is arbitrary, only.
    S has some meaning of logical IMPLICATION. The the abstract sentence A S B is a kind of A |-> B. The second clause B is an enhancement or an inference of first clause A.
    All of Encolpius's 3 examples demonstrate it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  13. Zsanna

    Zsanna ModErrata

    Hungary
    Hungarian - Hungary
    It is not quite like that, frank, according to Nyelvművelő Kézikönyv (Vol.1, p.569). (I didn't want to go into details to this extent because it is not needed really and even native speakers are not aware of it. Apart from the fact that even in NyK they managed to fill 2 full pages about és/s which we cannot reproduce here fully anyaway.)

    1. "Az s az és-nek rövidebb változata: szerepkörük nagyjából azonos." (= The s is the short version of és: their role is more or less identical.)

    2. (I think you are referring to this, at least this is the only thing I've found that is special for the s : )
    "Az s ... az utólagos hozzátoldás árnyalatát is kifejezi, bár ez nem általános (S mindjárt ki is fizette!). (= The s also expresses the shade of an addition that was thought up afterwards*, although it is not usual (And/So he paid it immediately!).)

    3. The only time the book mentions s as obligatory is in various expressions like: idestova (nearly, almost), egyről s másról (about one or another), ez s az (this and that)

    For the above examples, I would add (still quoting NyK) that they (both és and s) can be used between oppositions, so replacing s by de (in 2.) just underlines this but the use of és/s is not a mistake (in itself) in that meaning.
    In 1. and 3. the s was probably meant to be used in the above mentioned "utólagos hozzáadás" ("adding an afterthought"*) function, which (I maintain) is not easy to spot even for a native speaker.

    But I agree with you in lots of other aspects:
    - that journalists are not known for knowing grammar (sometimes even spelling is a challenge...:D) and they "play with"/"use" the public's lack of interest/demand/knowledge about that matter to hide it
    - as the s is used more frequently between subsentences and the és between words having the same role in the sentence (NyK) in the context of literature, a newspaper article could not really claim that. (This is why I suggested the és-s in Encolpius's other examples.)
    - also that in the case of using és/s even the NyK suggests to replace it with other convenient words when possible (e.g. hát, meg, sőt stb.) to avoid their repetition.

    *Difficult to translate properly (and off hand).
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  14. franknagy

    franknagy Senior Member

    I think that S does not come from ÉS but rather from SŐT [moreover].
    The worse the Hungarian soccer became the more flowers used the Hungarian reporters in their articles.
     

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