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work to improve

Discussion in '日本語 (Japanese)' started by neoarcangel, May 9, 2013.

  1. neoarcangel Senior Member

    Spanish
    Hi, I want write this sentece correctly in japanese.

    "I go on working to improve"

    I think that the sentece could be like this, but I think that it's not correct.

    私は上達するのためことを続く働く


    Thanks in advantage.
     
  2. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    I'm so sorry, but I do not understand your sentence. :(
    Can you rephrase it or explain what you want to say, or what situation?
     
  3. neoarcangel Senior Member

    Spanish
    Sorry, my english is not very good,actually Iam spanish.

    Probably it will be this
    "I will keep working to improve."

    or maybe it will be like this.

    "I will continue working to progress in my japanese study"

    The idea is reply to japanese people in a forum to they know that I want improve(progress, achieved) in my japanese study.

    That's the idea.
     
  4. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Does any of the below sentences say what you want to say?
    (日本語が)もっと上達するように、勉強を続けます。
    (日本語が)もっと上達するように、勉強を続けるつもりです。
    (日本語が)もっと上達するように、勉強を続けようと思います。

    In Japanese, 働く usually means work-work, like a job or labor, and 勉強/勉強する for "study"-work.
     
  5. neoarcangel Senior Member

    Spanish
    Yes, these sentences are very useful to me. Thanks.

    One doubt, this could it be correct?

    (日本語が)もっと上達するのために、勉強を続けます。
     
  6. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    No.

    1. ~のために : ~ must be a noun, not a verb.
    ◎勉強のために、大学へ行きます。 = correct
    ×勉強するために、大学へ行きます。= incorrect
    2. ~ために : used after volitional verbs(意志動詞)
    ◎アメリカに行くために、お金を貯めます。= correct
    ×日本語が上達するために、勉強します。 = incorrect, 上達する is not volitional​
    3. ~ように : used after non-volitional verbs(無意志動詞)
    ◎日本語が上達するように、勉強します。= correct
    ×アメリカに行くように、お金を貯めます。= incorrect, 行く is volitional.
    ◎アメリカに行けるように、お金を貯めます。= correct, 行ける is potential and not volitional.​
     
  7. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    See 'I like playing the guitar'. ギターを弾くのが好きです。 In this 'like (or other verb is possible) + ~ing' combination, の is often used.
    The main verb (stronger verb) is 好き、but 弾く isn't: the second one. Therefore の is added to 弾く: 弾くのが好きです。

    But 'to' in 'to improve' is rather 'in order to'. So it's different from a verb + ~ing combination. So you don't need の: するために~

    See also here ('to' used like 'in order to': the top, 'I set out to buy food' in 1).
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  8. neoarcangel Senior Member

    Spanish
    Thanks a lot to both. Your long explanations have been very useful. I will it keep in mind.Thanks again.
     
  9. lrosa Senior Member

    Dublin
    English - Ireland


    Would this work: 日本語 上達させるために、勉強します ?
     
  10. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    What if this one... 日本語を頑張ります!
     
  11. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    Yes.
    But it sounds a little bit awkward to me, maybe because the main verb is a simple 勉強します. If you are saying 日本語を上達させるために with 使役, you may want to detail more like what kind of 勉強 to improve it specifically.

    What about it? (頑張る is a volitional verb, if that is what you mean.)
     
  12. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    I know you know that we have こと, too. I don't tell you now in detail on this post! Too much information confuses you.
    But I suggest you a little bit: ギターを弾くことが好きです。 is OK, too. 弾くのが好きです is a bit more natural/casual but they're almost equal. Post again anytime!
     
  13. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Before that, can you tell me how you say 'I drink water' in Tagalog? (I'm curious)
     
  14. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    Sorry there was a typo, I mean benkyouSHImasu, not RImasu...
     
  15. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    I drink water = Umiinom ako ng tubig... Umiinom - drink, tubig - water, ako - I/me, ng - a particle...
     
  16. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    p.S I have 3 native languages, Tagalog, visayan, and English... Why got curious of tagalog in all of a sudden?
     
  17. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Why I asked you? I saw your personal info top right.
    Tagalog uses particles. Good. Perhaps, ng works similarly to を.

    You do something. Drink. Now a liquid called water is chosen by you. There's something affected by your action: Water. In other words, the water is sth you take.
    But I don't mean that ng = を always, because I don't know about Tagalog. You've now got something new to check.

    Then what do you do? 頑張る. What do you 'take' then? 日本語. Use particle を, an object marker. But don't do 頑張るを日本語. This is as well when using 勉強します. Therefore, your two questions have the clause pattern of SVO, aside from the word order.
     
  18. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    What is the meaning of SVO? Thanks...
     
  19. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    Haven't you heard of Subject + Verb + Object? (I drink water). Note that Japanese pattern is different in its order: Subject + Object (with an object marker) + Verb.
    Tagalog has more different one, too. Just compare them, quite interesting.
     
  20. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese
    I understand what you want to say. By the way, you know させる in principle needs an actor and a receiver. But

    you know we sometimes say: 電源をONにして、PCを起動させてください。
    Sounds like 'You do so, and that lets the PC start up', and contains a bit two-step, redundant..but noncritical at all.
    電源をONにして、PCを起動してください。
    This version, sounding more 'do it!', works good too.

    日本語を上達させるために(私は)勉強します。
    In two verbs させる・する, the actor is the same person?: you? Slightly unclear, because of a verb させる's function requiring actor and receiver.
    日本語が上達するように(私は)勉強します。
    See there is a very direct, straight relationship of 私 and 上達する-勉強する. And there is neoarcangel only in that sample. Sorry for being roundabout.
     
  21. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    frequency-san, I think the awkwardness is coming from the main verb 勉強します but not the structure itself.
    As a matter of fact, search by "英語を上達させるために" and you can find many decent examples.
    https://www.google.co.jp/webhp?hl=j...16,d.dGI&fp=7bbf6ee5097c1646&biw=1226&bih=745
    英語を上達させるためにあえて特定の表現を使用することを禁止してみましょう。
    英語を上達させるために必要なこと!
    英語を上達させるためには、さまざまな悩みがつきものですよね。
    英語を上達させるために、学校を利用する。
    海外で英語を上達させるためには「積極性」が一番重要です。
    これが、英語を上達させるためには一番の方法です。
    英語を上達させるために海外留学するのと、日本で英語を勉強するのとではやはり上達度にかなりの差が生じるのでしょうか?
    ホームステイという環境で英語を上達させるためには、それなりの心構えやちょっとしたコツが必要なようです。
    They all look decent to me, which leads me to think that the culprit is the main verb 勉強する being too unspecific to be used here with 使役 (for a method of improving a language skill).
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2013
  22. Tonky Senior Member

    Japanese
    I don't believe it was a typo though?
    ・勉強(べんきょう)します
    ・頑張(がんば)ります

    日本語をがんばります is usually 日本語の勉強をがんばります, but sometimes omits "の勉強" when spoken, if that is what you meant to say. がんばって!
     
  23. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    Ahh okay.. never familiar only with the abbreviation... hehehe.. but I do know subject + verb + object... In tagalog it is verb + subject + Object...
     
  24. pauro13

    pauro13 Junior Member

    Tagalog
    aw.. Sorry, The kanji were very similar, but I do mean ganbarimasu there.. and yes, ganbatte for me.. hehehe.. Thanks for correcting me...
     
  25. frequency

    frequency Senior Member

    Tokyo, Japan
    Japanese

    I haven't mentioned about the structure at all.

    Your samples are roughly 'To ~~, ~~.' For this pattern, させる is better. But the sixth one slightly differs from others.
    See the neoarcangel's sample: 'I study to improve my Japanese'. Compare this with your samples.

    My PC's sample: Japanese 起動する is somewhat intransitive. So 起動させる works fine, too. Sorry!
     

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