you two

Discussion in 'Polski (Polish)' started by Encolpius, Feb 8, 2013.

  1. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    You two... is wy dwaj or wy dwie in Polish. But does "wy" in that case mean "vosotros (sp.), ihr (de.) i.e. informal addressing, or you can use it towards people you would use panowie, panie (Spanish: Ustedes, German: Sie) as well? Briefly how would you translate the German "Sie beide", wy dwaj? Thanks.
     
  2. wolfbm1 Senior Member

    Poland
    Polish
    Hello Encolpius.
    "You two" can also mean "wy dwoje" to denote two people of different sex or two children.
    "You two" can have different meaning depending on context. In this website it has a neutral meaning: PAKIET SPA TYLKO WY DWOJE.
    It can have a negative meaning. Check this website. It is also an informal expression.
    Formal would be:
    obaj panowie, obydwaj panowie (2M)
    obie panie. obydwie panie (2F)
    and
    oboje państwo (M + F, maried or not married)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  3. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Hi,

    this is a bit more complex in Polish, but 'you two' can be translated as 'wy dwoje', 'wy dwaj', 'wy dwie'. Here 'wy' is the equivalent of Spanish 'vosotros/vosotras' and German 'ihr'. We would usually use a workaround to express the idea, I guess probably due to the fact that the mentioned forms sound a bit like an order, though there are contexts in which I can imagine them being said and not have these connotations. So we could say for example: Zróbcie xyz we dwóch/razem. (Haced xyz juntos./Macht das zusammen.) But a teacher at school can say to the children: Wy dwoje zróbcie xyz. (Vosotros dos, haced xyz./Ihr beide, macht das.)

    However, there is also a possibility to say: Panowie, wy dwaj zróbicie xyz. (Ustedes dos, hagan xyz./Sie beide, machen Sie xyz.)). This is a somewhat semi-(in)formal way of saying it. The formal way would be: Panowie, proszę zrobić xyz razem/we dwóch. (Hagan xyz, por favor./Machen Sie xyz, bitte.). Here, I can't think of another possibility than 'we dwóch'.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  4. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    In standard Polish --literary, and according to most official protocols, you cannot use Wy, instead of Pań/Pani/Państwo in Polish. It is the only form to address people you don't know in many Polish dialects, or dialects from the Polish territory (from the Tatra Mountains for example, or Silesian).
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  5. BezierCurve Senior Member

    Just a brief note: "wy" meaning "you" (singular!) was used for addressing people formally in the past (along with verbs in plural form, but the noun (title, proper name) was in vocative). Even in 1980s you could still hear a police officer say to you:

    A co wy tu, obywatelu, tak stoicie?
     
  6. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think it was just the communist jargon. It was not used this way before 1945 in literary Polish. It could have been used this way in some regional dialects only.
     
  7. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    This is what I used to think too, Liliana. However, it is older than that. I learnt the other day that this way of talking was once common amongst family members (my late great grandmother would adress her parents using the third person plural e.g.: mamo weźcie). I also remember Reymont used it in The Peasants:
    If I remember well, Sienkiewicz also used such forms in his texts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  8. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Unfortunately I did not meet my great grandparents -- I am not even sure which language they spoke -- some might have actually spoken Polish in addition to other languages. I think maybe it was more used in villages, and small communities. Do you think Sienkiewicz used it, or Mickiewicz? Raymont wrote mostly about the village -- they always used it this way, I think. It has probably only changed after 1945 that the language became more uniform for different communities and classes.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  9. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    I'd say it is unique among all Slavic languages. I wonder why. But addressing people in many language has a long history. Interesting history.
    Thank your for the interesting answers.
    Is it possible to translate this Spanish sentences into Polish: Ustedes espaňoles son fabulosos???
    I think Wy, Hiszpanie... is not quite correct.
    Thanks
     
  10. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    As I mentioned in my previous post, I think Sienkiewicz also used such forms. I don't remember it from Mickiewicz, but you would have to look it up. I think you would come across it predominantly in the speech of people who were lower in the social hierarchy than the person they were talking to. 'Superiors' didn't need to worry about this so much.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  11. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I think most likely we'd say:
    Hiszpanie są niezwykli.
    or
    Wy Hiszpanie jesteście niezwykli.
    or
    Państwo są/jesteście niezwykli.
    Maybe you could say 'Państwo, Hiszpanie, jesteście niezwykli.', or 'Państwo, Hiszpanie, są niezwykli.', but it would be rather infrequent.
     
  12. Encolpius

    Encolpius Senior Member

    Prague
    Hungarian
    So the literal translation is rather impossible. Thanks.
     
  13. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    Yes, I think "Hiszpanie są niezwykili" would be the most correct form. The form with wy would be very unlikely in Polish.
     
  14. BezierCurve Senior Member

    It could've originated from Pluralis Maiestatis in other languages. Do you remember "My, z Bożej Łaski Król Polski..."

    But I never really checked that.
     
  15. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    I don't remember as far back as that, Bezier. :D However, I think you may be well on the mark. While writing one of my previous posts, some vocative phrases with the verb in the second person plural to a monarch crossed my mind, but I thought I might imagine things, now this looks probable.

    EDIT: there is something interesting about it, though:
    And also:
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
  16. BezierCurve Senior Member

    ... and I think there was an expression like "Wasze" meaning singular "you", probably a contraction of that.
     
  17. LilianaB Senior Member

    US New York
    Lithuanian
    I think it amounted to talking to the King in the third person. That could have come from Latin perhaps. Some of the kings did not speak Polish that well.
     
  18. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    What comes to my mind is 'wasze' as in: 'to jest wasze, to jest nasze'. But that's not this. Could you please elaborate?

    Or it could have been a general tendency in some European languages.

    Another interesting thing on the second person plural:
    I think would require extensive research to see the evolution of verbal forms used with 'wy'.
     
  19. BezierCurve Senior Member

  20. Thomas1

    Thomas1 Senior Member

    polszczyzna warszawska
    Thank you, this is interesting. :)

    PS: there's another form of 'asan': 'acan' (unless you already knew it).
     
  21. ChipMacShmon

    ChipMacShmon Senior Member

    j. polski
    The most literal translations that come to my mind, that I possibly could use, are:

    Panowie Hiszpanie, jesteście niezwykli. or Panowie Hiszpanie! Jesteście niezwykli.(males)
    Panie Hiszpanki, jesteście niezwykłe. or Panie Hiszpanki! Jesteście niezwykłe. (females)
    Panowie i Panie Hiszpanie, jesteście niezwykli. or Panowie i Panie Hiszpanie! Jesteście niezwykli. (the closest one, mixed group)

    To my ears it sounds a little better than: Państwo Hiszpanie, jesteście niezwykli.

    Hiszpanie są niezwykli for me is too general. The phrase that I would use when speaking to a group of Spaniards would rather be Hiszpanie jesteście niezwykli. For me it sounds more personal, more concentrated on that specific group.
     

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