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Zustandspassiv, Vorgangspassiv, Vergangenheit

Discussion in 'Deutsch (German)' started by deadimp, Jun 7, 2006.

  1. deadimp Junior Member

    English - USA
    Split from here

    With this phrase:
    Could that be comparable to:
    > Die Brücke hat gebaut worden. - The bridge has been built.
    Or is it reflexive in that sense?
    If it isn't reflexive, how would you differ between using "sein" as a 'past-passive' tense and as the present perfect?
    > Es ist gefahren. - It has traveled / It has been traveled???
     
  2. Jana337

    Jana337 Senior Member

    čeština
    When you form the past tense in passive, the auxiliary word is "sein".
    Es ist geworden.
    Es wurde gebaut. = Es ist gebaut worden. (geworden is shortened if it is preceded by a participle).

    I don't see how reflexivity could feature here, but transitivity is an issue.

    To form both Zustandspassiv (the house is built) and Vorgangspassiv (the house is being built), the verb needs to be transitive in the active voice (someone is building the house).

    To go/fahren is not transitive; you cannot go/travel someone/something. Hence "es ist gefahren" is necessarily a past tense, "it travelled". "It has been travelled" does not make sense in any language I know.

    Now you may ask whether confusion can arise with transitive verbs. No, it cannot. They form the past tense with "haben".
    Ich habe das Haus gebaut.
    Das Haus wurde (von mir) gebaut. The house was built by me.
    Das Haus ist (von mir) gebaut worden. The house was built by me.
    Das Haus ist gebaut. The house has been built --> it exists.

    A note about fahren: It has a transitive meaning - to give someone a lift.
    Er hat mich zum Flughafen gefahren.
    Ich wurde (von ihm) zum Flughafen gefahren. (Sounds rather stilted in German; the passive voice is much more common in English.)
    Ich bin (von ihm) zum Flughafen gefahren worden.

    Compare the intransitive fahren:
    Er ist zum Flughafen gefahren.

    I hope I didn't kill your passion for German. :D

    Jana
     
  3. Whodunit

    Whodunit Senior Member

    กรุงเทพมหานคร
    Deutschland ~ Deutsch/Sächsisch
    Here's an older thread about the Zustandspassiv.
     
  4. gaer

    gaer Senior Member

    Fort Lauderdale
    US-English
    link

    I think we could paste the whole poem here because of the fact that it was written in the 1800s, but just in case, take a look at the link.

    Fort, ihr Wölkchen von der Stirne,
    Freundlich mir ins Aug' geschaut,
    Deine Lippen leg' an meine
    Und die Brücke ist gebaut.

    In English you could either say, "And the bridge is built (finished)" or "And the bridge has been built".

    When you write it this way:

    "Die Brücke ist gebaut worden."

    Then you can't put it in present tense when you translate (or you would take a greater liberty). The meaning is different, sometimes only a little, other times very different.

    Jana has already explained why it must be "ist". :)

    Gaer
     

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