À propos des deux verbes "être" allemands

babaz

Senior Member
Français
Bonjour,

Pourriez-vous m'indiquer ce qui distingue "sein" de "werden" (et vice versa) ?

En aurait-on un équivalent françois ?

Merci ! :)

NB : je ne parle pas un mot d'allemand.
 
  • berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    En allemand il y a deux façons de construire le passif: avec sein=être et avec werden=devenir. Le passif avec sein exprime un état est le passif avec werden exprime une action ou événement:
    Il est né = Er ist geboren (exprime l'état d'être né, i.e. il n'est plus dans le ventre de ça maman).
    Il fut né le 10 Janvier 1949 = Er wurde am 10. Januar 1949 geboren (exprime l'action/l’événement de ça naissance).

    françois ? :)
    Old spelling of français when <oi> was still pronounced /wɛ/. When the pronunciation of <oi> changed to the modern /wa/ in general, it changed to /ɛ/ in some words and the spelling was accordingly changed to <ai>.
     
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    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    English and French form the passive construction (He was killed, for ex.) using the same verb (to be, être) as is used for a variety of other purposes. German uses werden to construct the passive and sein for all those other uses of to be and être.

    (That's a quick summary. Some would say German has two passives, one with werden, one with sein. There are some differences in detail between usage of sein and être.)

    Edit: Crossed with berndf; will let it stand.
     

    ablativ

    Senior Member
    German(y)
    Pourriez-vous m'indiquer ce qui distingue "sein" de "werden" (et vice versa) ?

    Exemple:

    Den Tisch decken: Dresser le couvert.

    Der Tisch ist gedeckt worden: Le couvert a été dressé.

    Der Tisch ist gedeckt: Le couvert est dressé.
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Possible source of confusion:
    I interpreted the question as, "what is the difference between sein and werden in general (since both can be translated as "to be"). Berndf and ablative seem to have interpreted the question as what's the difference between the "sein passive" and the "werden passive".
    Old spelling of français when <oi> was still pronounced /wɛ/. When the pronunciation of <oi> changed to the modern /wa/ in general, it changed to /ɛ/ in some words and the spelling was accordingly changed to <ai>.
    The news of the pronunciation change hasn't reached some French speakers on this side of the Atlantic.:)

    Yes, I was aware that it was an old spelling; I was just wondering why it was being used in 2011...
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    Berndf and ablative seem to have interpreted the question as what's the difference between the "sein passive" and the "werden passive".
    Why else would you translate both sein and werden as être. The context seems clear to me.
     

    babaz

    Senior Member
    Français
    Thank you for your answers !
    ("Merci pour vos réponses !")

    (That's a quick summary. Some would say German has two passives, one with werden, one with sein. There are some differences in detail between usage of sein and être.)
    If we accept this view, what differences are there between the passive voice with "werden" (therefore, the most common) and one with "sein" ?

    The news of the pronunciation change hasn't reached some French speakers on this side of the Atlantic.:)

    Yes, I was aware that it was an old spelling; I was just wondering why it was being used in 2011...
    Il n'est jamais trop tard pour revenir sur une faute de goût.
    N'est-ce pas ? :)
     

    berndf

    Moderator
    German (Germany)
    If we accept this view, what differences are there between the passive voice with "werden" (therefore, the most common) and one with "sein" ?
    See #4 above. The version with "werden" is not more common, it means something different. Which one to use dependes on what you want to say.
     

    Dan2

    Senior Member
    US
    English (US)
    Why else would you translate both sein and werden as être. The context seems clear to me.
    I wasn't arguing that I was right and you were wrong; I was just trying to clarify matters for Babaz and other readers.

    However...:)

    Non-speaker of German: "How do you say "être" (in all its meanings) in German?
    German-savvy person: "Well sometimes it's "sein" and sometimes it's "werden"."
    Non-speaker of German: "Well, pourriez-vous m'indiquer ce qui distingue "sein" de "werden"?" (Babaz's question)

    That's the context I assumed.

    Il n'est jamais trop tard pour revenir sur une faute de goût.
    N'est-ce pas ? :)
    Ic understande.
     

    Spharadi

    Senior Member
    Spanish
    werden (aussi) = to become, to get = devenir.
    Il est devenu fou = Er ist verrückt geworden.
    Das Werden = le devenir.
    Das Sein und das Werden = L'être et le devenir.
    Bewusstseinswerdung (-werdung < werden) = Le devenir de la conscience.
     
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