é / ée (prononciation)

Magic Sprite

Member
English - England
Hi everyone,

I was just wondering if there is a difference in pronunciation between immobilisé and immobilisée?

Thanks :)
 
  • Le e final non accentué est muet.
    Dans une dictée, pour aider les jeunes élèves à bien orthographier, on peut être amené à prononcer -ée [-eə], mais on ne le fait pas dans le langage normal.

    Dans quelles circonstances as-tu entendu prononcer ce e ?
     
    Thank you both!

    OLN - I haven't heard about pronouncing the e, I just wanted to confirm that there was no difference in pronunciation :)
     
    My friend from Charleroi insists that I am pronouncing “régulée“ wrong because I am pronouncing it “régulé”.
    Are there parts of northern France and/or Belgium where this distinction is made? I am wondering whether it is an original regional characteristic or a hypercorrect form along the lines of #3.
    I have noticed that Belgians tend make some very clear distinctions between long and short vowels, in a way that I have not noticed in France!
     
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    It sounds to me like he pronounces -é as in “été” and ée with the vowel of “aise”.
    Tomorrow are going to see our friend in Mons, who is from a posh family and a school teacher, so we can ask her about it!
     
    It sounds to me like he pronounces -é as in “été” and ée with the vowel of “aise”.
    Concerning France at least, you're wrong. Both "é" and "ée" are pronounced [e]
    Examples:
    Le verre est posé /e/ sur la table.
    L'assiette est posée
    /e/ sur la table.
     
    Belgium maintains several vowel length distinctions that are absent in most of France, as you've noticed: a and â are usually only distinguished by length and not quality, pairs like sotte and saute use both quality and length (I tend to mishear French speakers with a short but tense [o] in saute as saying sotte), some vowels have been lengthened by a lost s or some final consonants followed by a lost e (gîte, voûte and ride are long, agite, soute and Madrid are short, for example)

    One of the sources of those long vowels are Və sequences as in amie, émue, roue, créée, lieue (and more rarely/more marginally, voie and arrivaient), which contrast with ami, ému, roux, créé or lieu.

    Those length distinctions are also present in Switzerland and in the eastern band of France between Belgium and Switzerland, but not really in the Nord-PaCa region. In Belgium, they're strongest in the regions where Walloon was a substrate, and might be less consistent in the Picard and Brabançon-subtrate regions (so your friend from Mons (technically Picard but right next to the border with Walloon) might do them a bit less consistently than someone from Charleroi, and once you get to Tournai, they just don't make most of those distinctions, just like someone from Lilles*)

    *Another word with a long vowel, by the way.

    As for the realisation, it's mostly just a normal Belgian short /e/(so [e̝], noticeably tenser than the cardinal vowel) but held for twice as long, maybe three times at most (200-250 ms for /e:/ vs 80-100 ms for /e/). Some speakers might have a noticeable low amplitude diphthong instead, something like [e̝ˑɪ̯], but the monophthong is the prestigious variant.

    It's not the vowel of aise /ɛ:z/ which is long but open. Some speakers do raise closed syllable /ɛː/ to [eː] however, but that's seen as very lower class (it's normal in loanwords from Dutch, English or Walloon however, as in Maelbeek /maːlbeːk/, mail /meːl/ or Donceel /dõseːl/, and can happen without nearly as much stigma when the vowel isn't in the stressed syllable, as in j'aiserai /ʒeːzre/ for me)

    So for verbs like réguler, you can have up to 4 é-like endings:

    réguler, régulé with /e/
    régulais, régulait with /ɛ/
    régulée with /eː/
    régulaient with /ɛː/ (as I mentioned this one is marginal)

    Speakers around Charleroi, but typically not elsewhere might have a five way distinction:

    régulé with /e/ [e] (short and not quite as raised as the usual /e/)
    réguler with /eˑ/ [e̝ˑ] (half long and slightly raised)
    régulée with /eː/ [e̝ː] (long and slightly raised)
    régulais, régulait with /ɛ/
    régulaient with /ɛː/ (still marginal, might be absent even if the speaker distinguishes régulé and réguler)

    If that's what your Carolo friend has, this might explain why you hear régulé as closer to aise.
     
    Thank you, Swatters, this is the sort of explanation I was hoping for. I think the vowel length distinctions include: in my friend’s family, the difference between “tout” and “tu” is in length, not quality.
    Apparently, my friend’s dad spoke only Wallon as a small child, and had to learn French at school. He still talks to his sister in Wallon “pur et dur”, I am told. (My friend’s mum was born in France so my friend and his brother and sister can understand Wallon but don’t really speak it except in jest.)
    Could there have been a mix-up with régulé(e) and régulait? [e] [ɛ]
    The issue came up as we were approaching Lille from the Calais ferry. I read a road sign announcing a “zone à/de vitesse régulée”. My friend thought I was pronouncing it like the “zone“ was “régulé”, not the “vitesse”. (All the references I found on line use the word “section” rather than “zone” but I don’t think I could have invented the “zone” version myself.)

    I will continue to aim for a standard French pronunciation myself - except when unsuccessfully taking the piss of course.
     
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    I don't speak Wallon, but as a Belgian speaker I also tend to make a difference between L'association a été créée en 1960 and Le produit a été créé par.... I pronounce "Créée" with a longer /e/, followed but a sort of "half e".
     
    The issue came up as we were approaching Lille from the Calais ferry. I read a road sign announcing a “zone à/de vitesse régulée”. My friend thought I was pronouncing it like the “zone“ was “régulé”, not the “vitesse”. (All the references I found on line use the word “section” rather than “zone” but I don’t think I could have invented the “zone” version myself.)
    Please ignore all this - I now suspect I was horribly confused about this part.
    Some speakers might have a noticeable low amplitude diphthong instead, something like [e̝ˑɪ̯], but the monophthong is the prestigious variant.
    This is one of things that most confused me about the accent when I first went there over 20 years ago. When my friend’s Mum said “deux” I could not only hear it as “deuil”, “eux” as “oeil”, etc, etc.
    (Previously, the only time I had been “immersed“ in French had been with a lovely posh family in Versailles lol.)
     
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