říkat (si)

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Jagorr

Senior Member
Russian, Belarusian
Šťastný nový rok! :)

A teď rovnou k otázce:

Kdo vždycky říkal, že každá opice to zvládne lépe, dostal za pravdu.
Po opravě této mé věty se z toho stálo: Kdo si vždycky říkal, že ...

Kdy stačí říct říct, a kdy se z toho stává zvratné sloveso?
 
  • Mori.cze

    Senior Member
    Czech
    Hezký nový rok:)

    V tomto případě jsou obě možnosti správně, s jistým významovým rozdílem, "říkal, že" = "říkal to ostatním, nahlas" vs. "si říkal, že" = "myslel si v duchu pro sebe". Volila bych (takhle bez dalšího kontextu) vaši větu před opravou (bez si), protože "každá opice to zvládne lépe" je takové to expresivní nadsazené tvrzení, které lidé spíš říkávají nahlas, než že by si to opravdu mysleli.
     

    Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the Queen's
    Hi Jagorr, a happy New Year to you, too!

    Ve vašem příkladu jde o zvláštní ale v češtině běžný úzus třetího pádu (dativu), který ale v ruštině neexistuje.
    Dopuručuji článek "The Dative Case in Czech: What It Means and How si Fits in" (Laura A. Janda), kde se píše mimo jiné:
    3. The Use of si to Express Dative: An Experiencer
    Czech si is very active in the expression of Benefit. In a sense, si can be used as a sort of barometer to determine what behaviors can be considered self-indulgent by the Czechs. Thus there are interesting distinctions between the uses of verbs with and without si, such as: hrát ‘play’ vs. hrát si ‘play for fun’, házet ‘throw’ vs. házet si ‘throw for fun’, kopat ‘kick’ vs. kopat si ‘kick for fun’, etc.
    See also:
    REFLEXIVE SE/SI - Complex phenomena
    4 In this function, si is (...) somewhat superflous, and can be deleted without a loss of meaning or grammaticality: jít si na výlet - to go for a trip, mazat si to domů - to hurry home, počkat si na někoho - to have to wait for somebody, už si odpracoval dvě hodiny - he has already worked off two hours. (source)
     
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    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    Děkuji, @Mori.cze !

    Hi Jagorr, a happy New Year to you, too!

    Ve vašem příkladu jde o zvláštní ale v češtině běžný úzus třetího pádu (dativu), který ale v ruštině neexistuje.
    Dopuručuji článek "The Dative Case in Czech: What It Means and How si Fits in" (Laura A. Janda), kde se píše mimo jiné:
    I beg to differ on the topic of the inexistence of the phenomenon in Russian, which does exist, even though its usage is on a much lesser scale. But I will not, as this is a Czech forum :rolleyes:
     

    Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the Queen's
    Perhaps I wasn't specific enough: I meant Russian doesn't have the "dative of experience" usage reflected in the short-form reflexive pronoun "si" attached to the verb. There's no parallel говорить с(еб)е :cross:, играть с(еб)е :cross:, подождать с(еб)е :cross: usage in Russian.
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    Perhaps I wasn't specific enough: I meant Russian doesn't have the "dative of experience" usage reflected in the short-form reflexive pronoun "si" attached to the verb. There's no parallel говорить с(еб)е :cross:, играть с(еб)е :cross:, подождать с(еб)е :cross: usage in Russian.
    I would love to hear about the state of affairs in the rest of the Slavic languages (I mean it, so feel free to PM me). To keep it short, my argument is that говорить себе, играть себе, подождать себе has a meaning of doing something with little respect to the circumstances, i.e. Его зовут, а он себе играет. Все вышли, а она всё ждёт себе чего-то.
    Not equal, yet quite close.
     

    Assiduous student

    Banned
    English - UK
    I would love to hear about the state of affairs in the rest of the Slavic languages (I mean it, so feel free to PM me). To keep it short, my argument is that говорить себе, играть себе, подождать себе has a meaning of doing something with little respect to the circumstances, i.e. Его зовут, а он себе играет. Все вышли, а она всё ждёт себе чего-то.
    Not equal, yet quite close.
    Yes, and I think some Russian reflexive verbs are relevant here too. In Czech there is a difference (please correct if wrong) between se and si. But e.g. in зачитался in Russian, "to get carried away reading", you could argue the reflexive ending was more of a 'si' than a 'se' in terms of the meaning? [Although, as Russian reflexive verbs don't take direct objects, apart from linguistic snarls such as слушаться мать, which was once слушаться матери with the genitive in older Russian, the -ся is technically always accusative in Russian...]
     

    Mori.cze

    Senior Member
    Czech
    Czech also has "začíst se", to immerse oneself into reading. The discussed special pleasure indicating dative would be e. g. "počíst si", to spend some time finding joy in reading.
    On more general note: I beg to differ with Enquiring Mind, "říkat si" in question is IMHO not an instance of this "dative of experience" phenomenon.
     

    Jagorr

    Senior Member
    Russian, Belarusian
    Czech also has "začíst se", to immerse oneself into reading. The discussed special pleasure indicating dative would be e. g. "počíst si", to spend some time finding joy in reading.
    I believe that Assiduous student pointed towards the use of "začíst se" which can implicitly mean the immersion into reading because of finding pleasure in it and forgetting the world around. It doesn't have to have this implicit meaning, but can be used with such. At least in Russian. I dare believe that the case is the same in Czech, isn't it? Například z hlavy..: Zase se začetl do nějaké detektivky / (nějakou detektivkou?).
    Kdežto "počíst si" předpokládá slabší intenzitu a pohlcení čtením.
     
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    Mori.cze

    Senior Member
    Czech
    I believe that Assiduous student pointed towards the use of "začíst se" which can implicitly mean the immersion into reading because of finding pleasure in it and forgetting the world around. It doesn't have to have this implicit meaning, but can be used with such. At least in Russian. I dare believe that the case is the same in Czech, isn't it? Například z hlavy..: Zase se začetl nějakou detektivkou.
    Kdežto "počíst si" předpokládá slabší intenzitu a pohlcení čtením.
    Yes, obviously we are discussing slight nuances of meanings. To me "začíst se" does not intrinsically have any connection to pleasure, it is well possible to concentrate at a boring law agreement and therefore to stop paying attention to the world. Therefore, gramatically it cannot be this special dative of benefit construction mentioned by Enquiring Mind (moreover I mentioned it to illustrate that it is not a dative anyway:)
    On the other hand, "počíst si" is a typical illustration of the discussed phenomenon.

    Btw. "začetl se do nějaké detektivky" :)
     
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