żeby zrobił VS. żeby zrobić

kamper

New Member
中文/Mandarin
As we know,

for instance, for the English sentence:
They suggested you take part in this meeting.

the Polish translation could be:
i. (Oni) zaproponowali ci, żebyś(abyś/byś) wziął udział w tym spotkaniu.
(or: (Oni) zaproponowali, żebyś(abyś/byś) (ty) wziął udiał w tym spotkaniu.)

In this case, one canNOT replace the żebyś-clause with an "infinitive" one, saying:
i-b.(Oni) zapronowali ci, :cross:żeby(aby/by) wziać:cross: udział w tym spotkaniu.

And this is because there is an disagreement between the agent in the main clause "they"("oni") and the agent in the relational żeby-subclause "he", true?

But how would you translate the following?
What made you decide to stop smoking?

My attempt here:
ii-b.Co skłoniło cię, żeby postanowić rzucić palenie? (btw. can I use the literal translation "przestać palić"/"przestać palenia" instead of "rzucić palenie" here? What about "cut smoking", namely "zerwać z paleniem"? Any nuances? What about "Co skłoniło cię do podjęcia decyzji o rzuceniu palenia?" ? Which one is better? Thanks!)

However, this was not my original translation. In the very beginning I envisaged another one, in the light of the fact that i. is correct, which finally turned out to be incorrect.
ii. Co skłoniło cię, :cross:żebyś postanowił:cross: rzucić palenie?

Yes, it is the results on google that have suggested to me there is no such saying as in ii. But,

Why is ii. wrong, while i. is fine?
Why is ii-b. fine, while i-b. is wrong?

I know that in i., ci is in the dative case and in ii., cię is in the accusative: but is that where the problem arises? Why the earth is there a difference?

Many thanks!
 
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  • AgnesLu

    New Member
    in the very short:
    i. 'Zaproponowali ci, żebyś wziął udział w spotkaniu' is fine

    I would say, ii. isn't too good option, because a senstence 'żebyś rzucił palenie' refers to the future', and if I understood, someone has already stopped smoking, so better would be :

    'Co skłoniło cię, żeby rzucić palenie'/'Co sprawiło, że rzuciłeś palenie'

    Possible and natural is :
    'Radzę ci, żebyś rzucił palenie' (in the future) I reccomend...

    rather than 'żebyś postanowił rzucić palenie' or 'radzę ci podjąć decyzję o rzuceniu palenia' which are too long and unnnatural.
     

    kamper

    New Member
    中文/Mandarin
    Hi Agnes!
    because a senstence 'żebyś rzucił palenie' refers to the future',
    oops I did not realise this. A serious mistake.:eek:

    and if I understood, someone has already stopped smoking, so better would be :

    'Co skłoniło cię, żeby rzucić palenie'/'Co sprawiło, że rzuciłeś palenie'
    That's fine, thx!

    My core question is: why is ii-b. fine, while i-b. is wrong? (I've modified my original post. My excuses here) What's the difference in using the structure "żeby zrobić" in the two examples here?

    'Co skłoniło cię, żeby rzucić palenie' and 'Co sprawiło, że rzuciłeś palenie' haven't take into account the verb "decide", though:) If I insist on NOT dropping it, (say, when compiling dictionaries, where the headword itself is "decide"), what could be a solution?

    Will this work:
    Co spowodowało, że postanowiłeś rzucić palenie?

    Possible and natural is :
    'Radzę ci, żebyś rzucił palenie' (in the future) I reccomend...

    rather than 'żebyś postanowił rzucić palenie' or 'radzę ci podjąć decyzję o rzuceniu palenia' which are too long and unnnatural.

    Of course, sentences like "I suggest you decide.." would be funny and the verb "decide" could be redundant, but in sentences like "what made you decide.."...well, "decide" isn't necessarily redundant at all, is it? The two cases are NOT comparable, I think.

    btw. are there any difference between
    Radzę ci, żebyś rzucił palenie.
    and
    Radzę ci rzucić palenie.
    ?

    thx in advance! :)
     

    AgnesLu

    New Member
    A serious mistake.:eek:
    not that serious, nor obvious

    My core question is: why is ii-b. fine, while i-b. is wrong? (I've modified my original post. My excuses here) What's the difference in using the structure "żeby zrobić" in the two examples here?

    Co skłoniło cię, żeby postanowić rzucić palenie?
    Something made YOU (and no one else) ...
    so you don't need to emphasize by 'żebyŚ TY'

    but

    (Oni) zapronowali ci, :cross:żeby(aby/by) wziać:cross: udział w tym spotkaniu.
    it is a proposal to you, but WHO is supposed to take part in the meeting? YOU or THEM? it isn't clear

    ~Zaproponowali ci, żebyŚ TY wziął udział
    or
    ~Zaproponowali ci, żeby ONI wzięli udział

    and it's 'wziąć' not 'wziać' ;)


    'Co skłoniło cię, żeby rzucić palenie' and 'Co sprawiło, że rzuciłeś palenie' haven't take into account the verb "decide", though:) If I insist on NOT dropping it, (say, when compiling dictionaries, where the headword itself is "decide"), what could be a solution?

    Well, for me, when I say 'I stopped smoking' it means by itself that I decided to do it.
    What do you mean 'if I insist on NOT dropping it'? I don't get:) sorry

    Will this work:
    Co spowodowało, że postanowiłeś rzucić palenie?
    sounds very good to me

    btw. are there any difference between
    Radzę ci, żebyś rzucił palenie.
    and
    Radzę ci rzucić palenie.
    ?

    For me, none ;)
     

    njumi

    Senior Member
    POLSKI
    But how would you translate the following?
    What made you decide to stop smoking?

    I´d say:
    Co skłoniło cię do podjęcia decyzji o rzuceniu palenia?

    or

    Co sprawiło, że podjąłeś/ęłaś decyzję o rzuceniu palenia?

    or

    Co sprawiło, że zdecydował/łaś się rzucić palenie?
     

    Thomas1

    Senior Member
    polszczyzna warszawska
    The sentences given by njumi sound formal, in colloquial Polish we would ommit the bits about making decision.

    Here are some of my comments
    i-b.(Oni) zapronowali ci, :cross:żeby(aby/by) wziać:cross: udział w tym spotkaniu.
    the infinitive clause sounds very impersonal here, almost as if you don’t want to use too many personal forms and since we have one ci then avoiding it further sounds strange.

    Zaproponowali, żeby wziąć udział w spotkaniu. is acceptable to my ears, however, it’s not someting I’d often use, it’s too impersonal, you do hear sentences of this sort though.

    Zaproponowali Ci, żebyś wziął udział w spotkaniu.
    This sentence sounds best, we know who is offered to take part in the meeting.

    ii-b.Co skłoniło cię, żeby postanowić rzucić palenie?
    It may be fine grammatically, but I would erase postanowić, it’s not necessary. Raczej nie skłania się do postanawiania, bo to nie ma sensu, ale do rzucenia palenia lub do podjęcia decyzji, żeby rzucić, bo o to tutaj chodzi.


    [...]
    'Co skłoniło cię, żeby rzucić palenie' and 'Co sprawiło, że rzuciłeś palenie' haven't take into account the verb "decide", though:) If I insist on NOT dropping it, (say, when compiling dictionaries, where the headword itself is "decide"), what could be a solution?

    Will this work:
    Co spowodowało, że postanowiłeś rzucić palenie?
    Yes this sentence sounds OK, though I am not clear what you mean above it.


    Of course, sentences like "I suggest you decide.." would be funny and the verb "decide" could be redundant, but in sentences like "what made you decide.."...well, "decide" isn't necessarily redundant at all, is it? The two cases are NOT comparable, I think.

    btw. are there any difference between
    Radzę ci, żebyś rzucił palenie.
    and
    Radzę ci rzucić palenie.
    ?
    The difference I discern is that the first sentence gives an additional piece of information about the gender and the second doesn't and can therefore be used for both genders.


    Tom
     
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    kknd

    Senior Member
    polski / Polish
    because a senstence 'żebyś rzucił palenie' refers to the future.

    this isn't true generally speaking. in most cases is, but consider such phrase:
    Chciałem, żebyś rzucił palenie.
    I wanted you to stop smoking.

    Here, in Polish version, you cannot tell if someone still wants it or not: he wanted then to happen in future; but you can't tell if this future is now past or not; is this request still valid.

    so correct would be such statement: senstence 'żebyś rzucił palenie' refers to the future regarding to main clause. correct me if this is still wrong.
     

    kamper

    New Member
    中文/Mandarin
    Oops sooooorry for this laaaaate reply!

    Thank you for the very useful tips, esp. to AgnesLu and Thomas for the detailed explanation you have provided which has been really helpful! There still remain some questions regarding this topic, but I think I have to raise them a little bit later..

    Many thanks again to all of you!:)
     
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