βατα

[odradek67]

Hello everyone,

apologies in advance for the long post that will follow.
I am reading a short story by the Russian author Mikhail Bulgakov about 1917 Ukrainian war of independence and the turmoil in Kiev, and there's a reference to Ukrainian Greeks that sounds more or less like

The Greeks were the only ones who did not come to Kiev, and this was an accident since a sensible administration sent them out of Odessa. Their last word was the Russian word “vata”. I congratulate them on not coming to Kiev. There an even worse “vata” would have awaited them.

This word in Russian means "wadding", some Russian native speakers suggested that the author may be playing with the Greek word "βατα". My knowledge of Greek is non-existent, I looked at some dictionaries and it seems that "βατα" means exactly the same, i.e. "wadding". But, perhaps, could it be a conjugated form of some verb or a shortened form of an idiomatic expression that refers to "a difficult situation" or "a dead end"?

Thank you!

 

[ioanell]

The word "βάτα" is just a noun (not a conjugated form of some verb or a shortened form of an idiomatic expression) and means "wadding, stuffing, padding" (with a usually cotton material used for internally strengthening the clothes in the area of the shoulders or for lining linen) and nothing more beyond that. Note that it is not a Greek word (there is no Greek one-word equivalent), but a modified Italian loan (< ovatta [imbottitura] < Fr. ouate < Med.Lat. wadda < unknown origin).

 

[velisarius]

Are you reading the story in English or in Russian? What is the title?

The point seems to be that it's a pun on a "worse fate would have awaited them". I don't know how to get from вата or бата to "fata", which is not the Greek word for fate either.

 

[Rosett]

Hello Greek foreros, here’s a question from the Russian forum for you.
Could you attest that a Greek curse
“πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!” would be a well established expression understandable by Greek natives in the beginning of 20th century (circa 1917)? Could it be specific to Έλληνες του Πόντου? And what does it mean exactly?

 

[odradek67]

Are you reading the story in English or in Russian? What is the title?

The point seems to be that it's a pun on a "worse fate would have awaited them". I don't know how to get from вата or бата to "fata", which is not the Greek word for fate either.

The title is "The City of Kiev". I'm translating it from Russian to Italian. The English translation I was able to find used "fate" for "vata" but I'm perplexed. An Italian translation simply uses the equivalent for "wadding" but it makes little sense. I'm not sure whether it's, in fact, a nonsensical wordplay or an actual pun. Anyways, Rossett found something very interesting.

 

[shawnee]

Hello Greek foreros, here’s a question from the Russian forum for you.
Could you attest that a Greek curse
“πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!” would be a well established expression understandable by every Greek native in the beginning of 20th century (circa 1917)? Could it be specific to Έλληνες του Πόντου? And what does it mean exactly?

I don't know the expression but the first thing that comes to mind is an embalming process. This would fit well with it being a curse.

 

[Perseas]

Hello Greek foreros, here’s a question from the Russian forum for you.
Could you attest that a Greek curse
“πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!” would be a well established expression understandable by Greek natives in the beginning of 20th century (circa 1917)? Could it be specific to Έλληνες του Πόντου? And what does it mean exactly?

(Is this reply related to the first posting?)
I've never heard this expression. It's standard Greek and I don't think that Pontians would use it as it is, since they spoke a dialect. The beginning "που να σου + verb" suggests that it's rather a curse; I agree with shawnee.

 

[Rosett]

(Is this reply related to the first posting?)
I've never heard this expression. It's standard Greek and I don't think that Pontians would use it as it is, since they spoke a dialect. The beginning "που να σου + verb" suggests that it's rather a curse; I agree with shawnee.

Thank you so much for your quick reply. Yes, my post is in connection with the first post, since we tried to explain such an uncommon meaning of "βάτα" in the given context (Russian spelling «вата», as it appears in the text.) Pontic Greeks fleeing Odessa on foot (in a pedestrian order) before the turmoil of upcoming Great October Socialist Revolution led by Lenin’s Bolshevik Party and following Russian Civil War (which led to devastation of Ukraine, as well) were shouting out their last word, "Bάτα!" at Odessa residents as farewell cursing them . This way they had never come to Kiev City, sparing themselves from even worse "βάτα" outcome, according to the author of the story, famous Russian writer Михаил Булгаков who had gone through those events as eyewitness.

I don't know the expression but the first thing that comes to mind is an embalming process. This would fit well with it being a curse.

Thank you for being the first to reply! But would be there any difference if they replace "βαμβάκι" by “βάτα” in the saying?

 

[ioanell]

my post is in connection with the first post, since we tried to explain such an uncommon meaning of "βάτα" in the given context

would be there any difference if they replace "βαμβάκι" by “βάτα” in the saying?

I haven’t come across the expression “πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!” either, therefore I can’t say in which part of Greece and when it was (or it is yet) used, but its meaning seems to be close to Shawnee’s opinion that the expression may be a curse, that is “May you die”. The reason may be that, according to the usual practice, (sorry for the macabre description) the nostrils and the mouth of the dead are padded with cotton in order not to possibly give off deathly smells while people in front of the coffin are paying their dues. I agree with Perseas that it might not be a Pontic expression in the form it is given here and I would like to know, if possible, where you found it. As for a replacement of "βαμβάκι" by "βάτα" in the said expression, I don't think it would be possible, although βάτα is made of cotton (#2).

 

[Rosett]

I haven’t come across the expression “πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!” either, therefore I can’t say in which part of Greece and when it was (or it is yet) used, but its meaning seems to be close to Shawnee’s opinion that the expression may be a curse, that is “May you die”. The reason may be that, according to the usual practice, (sorry for the macabre description) the nostrils and the mouth of the dead are padded with cotton in order not to possibly give off deathly smells while people in front of the coffin are paying their dues. I agree with Perseas that it might not be a Pontic expression in the form it is given here and I would like to know, if possible, where you found it. As for a replacement of "βαμβάκι" by "βάτα" in the said expression, I don't think it would be possible, although βάτα is made of cotton (#2).

Thank you so much for your detailed insight. The expression was found in a Greek-Russian dictionary Νέα ελληνική-Ρωσικά λεξικό > βαμβάκι:
βαμβάκι, meaning 3:
1) хлопок;
2) вата;
με βαμβάκι — на вате;
υδρόφιλο βαμβάκι — гигроскопическая вата;
3) кусок ваты (которым закрывают рот покойника);
πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι! — когда ты только подохнешь!, чтоб ты сдох! =
*(όταν απλά πεθαίνεις!, για να πεθάνεις!).
«Новый греко-русский словарь»
Перевод вата с греческого на русский

But the Pontians leaving Odessa in 1917 spoke Russian and apparently used

"βάτα"

as a word in Russian — «вáта» — which reproduces in Cyrillic the same spelling and pronunciation as if in Greek.

 

[Rosett]

I’d like to append to the above that in Russian «вата» stands only for a product of cotton, not raw cotton (for which Russian has «хлопок», as shown in #10, meaning 1.) But can both «вата» (meaning 2) and «хлопок» be rendered as βαμβάκι, indeed?
Does meaning 3 of βαμβάκι in #10 stand for “tuft of cotton wool («кусок/клок ваты», in Russian) used to cover the mouth of a dead person?”
Thanks for your invaluable help.

 

[Helleno File]

Can I check that βαμβάκι also translates what we call 'cotton wool' in English - the white fluffy stuff you hold on your arm after an injection or blood test.

 

[ioanell]

But can both «вата» (meaning 2) and «хлопок» be rendered as βαμβάκι, indeed?
Does meaning 3 of βαμβάκι in #10 stand for “tuft of cotton wool («кусок/клок ваты», in Russian) used to cover the mouth of a dead person?”

As I understand, Russian «хлопок» translates in Greek as ακατέργαστο βαμβάκι (which undergoes specific processes in order to be used afterwards in the textile industry and in the pharmaceutical industry).
Russian «вата» translates in Greek as βαμβάκι, that is the processed product (purified cotton wool) for medical, cosmetic or even household use. It's the same βαμβάκι which is used as described in meaning 3 above and in #9.

 

[Rosett]

As I understand, Russian «хлопок» translates in Greek as ακατέργαστο βαμβάκι (which undergoes specific processes in order to be used afterwards in the textile industry and in the pharmaceutical industry).
Russian «вата» translates in Greek as βαμβάκι, that is the processed product (purified cotton wool) for medical, cosmetic or even household use. It's the same βαμβάκι which is used as described in meaning 3 above and in #9.

Thank you so much for your most accurate insightful explanation of those subtle details corresponding to each possible meaning. But in those terms, how could you explain meaning of "βάτα" set by the topicstarter?

 

[ioanell]

how could you explain meaning of "βάτα" set by the topicstarter?

Frankly, I can't explain what they really meant by shouting out the word "βάτα". Perhaps, given the meaning of Russian «вата» as βαμβάκι, the use of this single word was -as already said above- a curse equivalent to the expession (which you put forward) “πού να σού βάλουνε το βαμβάκι!”, possibly a local expression usual among Pontic Greeks in Odessa.