διακατειχοντο

ianis

Senior Member
Portuguese - Portugal
Γεια σας. Νομίζω ότι ακούω αυτή τη λέξη άλλα δεν βρίσκω πληροφορίες για αυτή. Μήπως έχει έννοια σχετική με το "διακατέχω" αλλά δεν είμαι σίγουρος, και δεν την βρίσκω στην κλίση του ρήματος αυτού.
 
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  • dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Είναι το τρίτο πληθυντικό πρόσωπο παρατατικού του διακατέχομαι, όπως κλινόταν στα αρχαία αλλά και σε αρχαιοπρεπή σημερινό λόγο -μόνο σε εξεζητημένο ύφος λόγου θα το βρεις ή από κάποιον ηλικιωμένο θα το ακούσεις. Σήμερα το λέμε συνήθως διακατέχονταν.
    (διακατεχόμουν, διακατεχόσουν, διακατεχόταν, διακατεχόμαστε ή διακατεχόμασταν, διακατέχεστε ή διακατεχόσαστε, διακατέχονταν)
    Σημαίνει (Βικιπαίδεια): βρίσκομαι υπό την επήρεια ενός έντονου συναισθήματος.
     

    elineo

    Senior Member
    Παρατατικός του διακατέχομαι (δια- κατ(α)- έχομαι). Κλίνεται όπως το αρχαίο έχομαι (παθητική του έχω). Σημαίνει κυριεύομαι από κάποιο συναίσθημα.
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ επίσης και για την σημασία. Αλλά τότε δεν έχει σημέρα ακριβώς την σημασία του αρχαίου όρου;
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Στα αρχαία το ρήμα έχει πολύ περισσότερες έννοιες:
    διακατέχω = διακατέχω, κατέχω, κατοικώ, αναστέλλω, εμποδίζω, κρατώ, εξουσιάζω, κυριεύω...
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Σε ευχαριστώ πολύ.
    Το λεξικό την νεοελληνική γλώσσα που χρησιμοποιώ δίνει κάπως διαφορετική εντύπωση από το ότι λέγει η Βικιπαίδεια γιατί δεν έχει την παθητική έννοια τη λέξη διακατέχω και την έννοια που δίνει είναι κατέχω και απολαμβάνω και την καταχώρηση της λέξης κατέχω είναι πιο ολοκληρωμένη από αυτη.της διακατέχω.
    Αλλά για παράδειγμα, μπορεί ο καθένας να χρησιμοποιήσει τη λέξη διακατέχομαι ως διακατέχομαι από ένα πνεύμα ή θειότητα;
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Συνήθως: διακατέχομαι από φόβο / μίσος / την αντίληψη ότι... / πνεύμα (προσφοράς, αντιζηλίας κλπ.) / έντονη διάθεση να... κλπ.
    Διακατέχομαι από κάποιο πνεύμα (με τη μεταφυσική έννοια) μπορεί επίσης να σταθεί.
    (Δεν υπάρχει λέξη θειότητα, μάλλον εννοείς θεότητα. Δεν χρησιμοποιείται όμως έτσι (με την έννοια spirit). Σημαίνει deity.
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Σε ευχαριστώ dmtrs ναι ήθελα να πω θεότητα με την έννοια την υπερφυσική οντότητα όπως λέγεις.
    Αλλά στο πλαίσιο όπου ακούω αυτή τη λέξη είναι σχετική με τα συναισθήματα.
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    Perhaps it would be helpful for our foreign friends to give the Παρατατικός (=Past Continuous / Repetitive) tense of the mediopassive voice verbs as it is used in fact and as given by the grammar books, that is “λυνόμουν (=I was being solved / I used to solve myself), λυνόσουν, λυνόταν, λυνόμασταν, λυνόσασταν, λύνονταν (and -in familiar and folksy style- λυνόντουσαν)”. The Paratatikos forms of the 1st and 2nd person plural “λυνόμαστε, λυνόσαστε” (forms occasionally spoken in southern Greece) were and still are forms which coincide with the corresponding persons of the Simple Present, so they don’t adequately give the sense of the “past” and that is an additional reason for their non-prevalence. The same, of course, applies to the past tense of the auxiliary verb “είμαι” (=I am / to be), that is “ήμουν, ήσουν, ήταν, ήμασταν, ήσασταν, ήταν”.
    As it is noted in the Grammar of Modern Greek Language intended for the secondary education students “Very rarely, and mainly by speakers coming from the south of Greece, the forms in -όμαστε and -όσαστε are used for the 1st and 2nd person plural of the Past Continuous / Repetitive”.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    As a "foreign friend" thanks Ioanell for that very helpful clarification which I've been thinking about since your last post. It's something that has confused me. Σταυρόπουλος in the Oxford Learners Dictionary has -όμαστε and -όσαστε for 1st and 2nd person plural of the παρατατικός and the similarity with the present had seemed odd to me. Holton et al Essential Greek Grammar has -όμασταν and όσασταν without comment plus a range for the 3rd person pl with indications about which are more colloquial.

    So I think I've got it now. :thumbsup:
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    It seems that in older grammar books or dictionaries occurred only the forms -όμαστε & όσαστε. The previous school grammar had only those forms, while the current one has both forms with -όμασταν & όσασταν having priority. The first EN-GR edition of Stavropoulos dictionary was in 1977.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    Thanks Perseas. I have recently got a PDF of the Γραμματική Α', Β' Γ' Γυμνασίου on my mobile, but with the dense text it's not an easy format for browsing! But very useful for specific points such as this.

    I've just checked Μπαμπινιότης School/Office Dictionary - it gives the same as the secondary school grammar. But I assume Μπαμπινιότης is not very new either. BTW my (outstanding) greek teacher feels Μπαμπινιότης is a bit too "modern" for her taste, though she is fairly young herself!
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Greek
    I've just checked Μπαμπινιότης School/Office Dictionary - it gives the same as the secondary school grammar. But I assume Μπαμπινιότης is not very new either.
    Well, it depends. If compared to the previous school grammar of Triandaphyllides, which was given to pupils until 8-9 (?) years ago, Babiniotis' grammar is new. ;)
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    The previous school grammar had only those forms
    This is true, but we shouldn’t forget that this school grammar was simply a 1976 readjustment of the Manolis Triantaphyllides’ ΝΕΟΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΙΚΗ, published in 1941. This 1941 Grammar on the one hand gave the forms -όμαστε & -όσαστε in the main inflectional table, and on the other hand, in paragraph 883, it gave so many features in favour of -όμασταν & -όσασταν that one might wonder why these forms weren’t given as having priority in the main inflectional table.

    I don’t know whether it is worth mentioning that "Christos Clairis -George Babiniotis' - Γραμματική τής Νέας Ελληνικής: Δομολειτουργική – Επικοινωνιακή", containing the prevailing forms, was published in 2011.

    I've just checked Μπαμπινιότης School/Office Dictionary
    The surname Babiniotis, when written in Greek, should be Μπαμπινιώτης, with the suffix - (ι)ώτης, used -as others as well- to derive nouns denoting descent from specific places. Here, most probably from the name of the village Μπαμπίνη in Aetolia-Acarnania.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    It's interesting to hear the history of school grammars from the point of view of understanding what Greeks have been taught, which seems to have been relatively conservative until recently. I can't see a publication date on the Ministry of National Education & Religious Affairs produced Grammar but I presume it is this decade. I do note it was 75% funded by the EU Social Fund! There's also Σύγχρονη σχολική γραμματική για όλους by Μπαμπινιώτης - too expensive for me at £50. I presume it's not actually used in schools given the state produced alternative.

    And of course my apologies to K. Μπαμπινιώτης for misspelling his name which appears in large capitals every time I open the app! Thanks Ioanell.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    There's also Σύγχρονη σχολική γραμματική για όλους by Μπαμπινιώτης - too expensive for me at £50. I presume it's not actually used in schools given the state produced alternative.
    The title of this work is misleading. It's never been adopted as a school grammar book. It is a new(er) approach to Greek grammar, sometimes controversial -as most of Babiniotis' works. As a prominent linguist, of course, he has the right to propose new theories, views or approaches to language; the decision to name his collaborative work with Χρήστος Κλαίρης "σχολική", though, is at least arguable.
     

    ioanell

    Member
    Greek
    There's also Σύγχρονη σχολική γραμματική για όλους by Μπαμπινιώτης - too expensive for me at £50. I presume it's not actually used in schools
    You are right, Helleno File, as is dmtrs when saying that the title of this work is misleading, because not every book having the words σχολικός, σχολική, σχολικό in its title is actually used in schools; but I ΄d like to add that, to the best of my knowledge, no Γραμματική τής Νέας Ελληνικής as a collaborative work by Χρήστος Κλαίρης & Γεώργιος Μπαμπινιώτης bears the word ‘σχολική’ in its title.
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    You can "leaf through" the Μπαμπινιώτης "Σχολική" here which gives a surprisingly generous preview of the single author grammar. I had seen this before but while googling found it is only €25 πάνω-κάτω online in Greece. :( :eek:

    The site for all his works demonstrates how much he has become a "brand"!
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    no Γραμματική τής Νέας Ελληνικής as a collaborative work by Χρήστος Κλαίρης & Γεώργιος Μπαμπινιώτης bears the word ‘σχολική’ in its title.
    You are right, ioanell. Babiniotis uses only his own name for this book. I assume though this is the latest offspring of the older collaborative work (he does make the most of his works anyway, publishing parts of them in different forms). If it is a really new Grammar, it's amazing how much things must have changed in Greek language in 20 years in order for a need to arise for a new description (Grammar is a description anyway) of the language! Or how his collaboration with Clairis has dated in 20 years while other Grammars (say Trantafyllides') are still relevant after many decades...

    The site for all his works demonstrates how much he has become a "brand"!
    Maybe this answers my questions...
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    I've just ordered the 'Γραμματική Α 'β 'Γ Γυμνασίου from Πρωτοπορία. Amazingly it is only €3.82! Plus a hefty shipping charge to the UK, of course!

    It looks like all school books are very cheap indeed. Are they subsidised by the government? Is that because children are ecpected to provide them? Sorry for my ignorance - in Britain schools provide textbooks for children.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Books in Greek public schools are provided by the state but they are also cheap if anyone wants to buy them on the market.
     

    Αγγελος

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Books in Greek public schools are provided by the state but they are also cheap if anyone wants to buy them on the market.
    They are also published by the State -- by the Οργανισμός Εκδόσεως Διδακτικών Βιβλίων, a government publishing house.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    They are also published by the State -- by the Οργανισμός Εκδόσεως Διδακτικών Βιβλίων, a government publishing house.
    The "Οργανισμός Εκδόσεως Διδακτικών Βιβλίων" was shut down a few years ago. The school books are now published by "Ινστιτούτο Τεχνολογίας, Υπολογιστών και Εκδόσεων 'Διόφαντος' ".
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    In the covers of the books of exercises it reads that it contains "απαντήσεις στης γλωσσικές ασκήσεις του σχολικού βιβλίου".
    Is there any way one can know what is the matching textbook? It seems the author is the same for a great variety of them.
     
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    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    The second one corresponds to this book:
    Νέα Ελληνική Γλώσσα (Α Γενικού Λυκείου – Γενικής Παιδείας): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο

    The first one is strange; I teach Ancient Greek in Λύκειο for quite a few years, and I cannot understand to what school book it might refer to. There are textbooks for all three Λύκειο classes, but none has a section of syntax or grammar exercises; there are some exercises of this sort scattered among general questions of comprehension for each chapter of each book. Anyway, the textbooks we teach in Λύκειο are:
    Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα και Γραμματεία - Αρχαίοι Έλληνες Ιστοριογράφοι (Α Γενικού Λυκείου – Γενικής Παιδείας): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο
    Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα και Γραμματεία - Ρητορικά Κείμενα (Β Γενικού Λυκείου - Προσ/μού Ανθρωπιστικών Σπουδών): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο
    Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα και Γραμματεία - Θουκυδίδη «Περικλέους Επιτάφιος» (Β Γενικού Λυκείου – Γενικής Παιδείας): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο
    Αρχαία Ελληνική Γλώσσα και Γραμματεία - Σοφοκλέους «Αντιγόνη» - Θουκυδίδη «Περικλέους Επιτάφιος» (Β Γενικού Λυκείου – Γενικής Παιδείας): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο
    Αρχαία Ελληνικά (Γ Γενικού Λυκείου – Ομ.Προσ/σμού Ανθρωπιστικών Σπουδών): Ηλεκτρονικό Βιβλίο
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Thank you dmtrs those are great resources. If the info is correct the publisher and authors are also different from the ΟΡΓΑΝΙΣΜΟΣ ΕΚΔΟΣΕΩΣ ΔΙΔΑΚTΙΚΩΝ BΙBΛΙΩΝ ΑΘΗΝΑ and respective authors of the books you mention. Anyway with so many resources maybe there is no point in getting those books.
     

    dmtrs

    Senior Member
    Greek
    You are welcome, ianis.
    Since you found these links useful, here's another one, where you can find all the books that are taught in Greek schools sort by subject, in all stages of education -of course those that would be of interest are the ones under the labels ΝΕΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ and ΑΡΧΑΙΑ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΓΛΩΣΣΑ ΚΑΙ ΓΡΑΜΜΑΤΕΙΑ (but other labels like ΛΟΓΟΤΕΧΝΙΑ might interest you as well):
    Διαδραστικά Σχολικά Βιβλία
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Thank you very much again dmtrs there's a lot of useful stuff there. There are far more resources on these subjects in Greek than in English (or Portuguese for that matter), for the obvious reasons of course.
     
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