μου αρέσει - μου πάει - μου λείπει

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larshgf

Senior Member
Danish
μου αρέσει - μου πάει - μου λείπει

With some verbs modern greek use a kind of "inverted word order" in the sentence:

μου αρέσει να ταξιδέψω
της πάει το φόρεμα
του λείπει η γυναίκα του

What do you call this grammatical phenomenon? Apart from the above mentioned, do you hae other examples of verbs behaving like this?
 
  • διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Maybe you mean the following:
    το να ταξιδέψω μου αρέσει (I think this is correct, but not without the "το")
    το φόρεμα της πάει
    η γυναίκα του του λείπει
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    Why do you think that it is "inverted"? What would be the "normal word order"?
    For instance "μου αρέσει το φαγητό". It means "the food pleases me", but we normaly translate it "I like the food"
    I dont know how to explain it, but somehow (I think) these three verbs behave a bit different than other verbs?
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    For instance "μου αρέσει το φαγητό". It means "the food pleases me", but we normaly translate it "I like the food"
    In this example, subject and object are inverted (exchanged for each other), if you compare Greek to English. How would you translate the other two examples to English?
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    For instance "μου αρέσει το φαγητό". It means "the food pleases me", but we normaly translate it "I like the food"
    I dont know how to explain it, but somehow (I think) these three verbs behave a bit different than other verbs?
    Also, German has equivalent structures for "μου αρέσει" (X gefällt mir) and "μου λείπει" (X fehlt mir). Is Danish different from German on that issue?
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    In the metioned sentences I think you use these 3 verbs as impersonal verbs.
    In danish we usually dont use the order of words like that. We say (translated to english):
    - I like the food (not "the food pleases me")
    - the dress fits the lady (not "the dress goes to her")
    - he miss his wife (not "his wife is gone to him")
    I think I have to explore a bit more in this issue so I can be dressed better to this discussion. Maybe I dont have a point at all ;-)
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    In the metioned sentences I think you use these 3 verbs as impersonal verbs.
    I understand what you mean, but no, the verbs are personal, i.e. their subjects are nouns or pronouns.

    For example, the verb "αρέσω" has inverse structure from that of the verb "like". That is, the subject of "like" is the object of "αρέσω" and the object of "like" is the subject of "αρέσω".
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    I had a (apparently) wrong idea about these verbs beeing impersonal because we only use them in the 3. person singularis and pluralis.
    But I see what you mean.
    Somehow I just feel that these 3 verbs (and maybe more that I dont know) syntactically behaves a bit special. I might be totally wrong?
     
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    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Somehow I just feel that these 3 verbs (and maybe more thet I dont know) syntactically behaves a bit special. I might be totally wrong?
    They have no direct object (αιτιατική), but only one in γενική. This is a little special. I think you can call them "intransitive" verbs.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    I had a (apparently) wrong idea about these verbs beeing impersonal because we only use them in the 3. person singularis and pluralis.
    But I see what you mean.
    Της αρέσεις/λείπεις is 2nd person. The subject here is "εσύ". Another way of phrasing that is "Εσύ αρέσεις/λείπεις σ' αυτή".

    Somehow I just feel that these 3 verbs (and maybe more thet I dont know) syntactically behaves a bit special. I might be totally wrong?
    That's due to the structure of those verbs. You could say "αυτός τη συμπαθεί", for example, instead of "του αρέσει (αυτή)", although it's not absolutely the same.
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    Thank you διαφορετικός and Perseas for your help. I might return here with further..... :)
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    :thumbsup: Or you can use the structure with a preposition.
    Αυτό μου αρέσει = Αυτό αρέσει σ' εμένα.
    μου=σ' εμένα.
    Yes, I forgot to mention the fact that the πτώση αιτιατική alone is not enough to recognize a direct object: If it is combined with a preposition, it is not a direct object.

    Is there a Greek word for "intransitive" in this sense? Some dictionaries indicate "αμετάβατος" as a translation, but the definition of "αμετάβατο ρήμα" here excludes objects of any kind, not only the direct objects.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Yes, I forgot to mention the fact that the πτώση αιτιατική alone is not enough to recognize a direct object: If it is combined with a preposition, it is not a direct object.

    Is there a Greek word for "intransitive" in this sense? Some dictionaries indicate "αμετάβατος" as a translation, but the definition of "αμετάβατο ρήμα" here excludes objects of any kind, not only the direct objects.
    In "μου αρέσει κάτι", the verb is not intransitive (αμετάβατο), since it has an object (μου), it's transitive (μεταβατικό).


    I had a (apparently) wrong idea about these verbs beeing impersonal because we only use them in the 3. person singularis and pluralis.
    Της αρέσεις/λείπεις is 2nd person. The subject here is "εσύ". Another way of phrasing that is "Εσύ αρέσεις/λείπεις σ' αυτή".
    In the third person singular (αρέσει), this verb can be used as impersonal, e.g. "μου αρέσει να κολυμπάω".
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    They have no direct object (αιτιατική), but only one in γενική. This is a little special. I think you can call them "intransitive" verbs.
    In a grammar ("Greek - A Comprehensive Grammar") some of the verbs are mentioned in a paragraph titled "The genitive dependent on a verb" from where i quote:

    "The genitive (usually a weak pronoun) is also used with certain verbs that do not take direct objects, such as αρέσω 'please', πάω 'suit' and φαίνομαι 'seem':
    Δεν μου αρέσει αυτό το κρασί
    'I don't like this wine'
    Σου πάει αυτή η φούστα
    'This skirt suits you'
    Δύσκολο μου φαίνεται
    'It seems difficult to me'


    I found this paragraph last night and it seems to pinpoint what is all about. Now I just wonder if you have examples of other verbs that does not take direct object?
     

    Helleno File

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    This is a very regular topic here, larshgf! We've all struggled with it! It's a difficulty for native English speakers - and obviously for Danes too, which I hadn't realised. (Nice to know we're not alone! :D ) In fact the structure "it pleases me" exists in a number of European languages. διαφορετικός has mentioned German but it is also true in French - "la robe me plaît". I'd be interested tο hear other examples. And classical Latin has "mihi placet".

    Add to this the fact that the case structure of Greek allows a looser/less rigid structure (depending on your point of view). This includes what we would call "inversions" but are just normal language to a Greek. German speakers can cope with a structure SO.......V in a subordinate clause so this is nothing to them. ;) And finally pronouns always come before the verb in Greek (except in the imperative) , as in French but unlike English and German - ?? Danish. This therefore doubles the illusion of inversion in our eyes!
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    In "μου αρέσει κάτι", the verb is not intransitive (αμετάβατο), since it has an object (μου), it's transitive (μεταβατικό).
    Thank you. But the English word does not have this meaning. An "intransitive verb" does not have a direct object, but it can have indirect objects. (In German, "intransitives Verb" means the same as the English term.)
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Now I just wonder if you have examples of other verbs that does not take direct object?
    Probably most of them also don't have an indirect (genitive) object:
    περπατώ - go for a walk
    κοιμάμαι - sleep

    I have found an example with genitive:
    μου χαμογέλασε - (s)he smiled at me
     

    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    Similar in Russian: мне нравится = μου αρέσει = I like

    Actually that is one point that I enjoy in both these languages... Εγώ συμπαθώ εσένα, εγώ θαυμάζω εσένα, εγώ γουστάρω εσένα αλλά..... εσύ μου αρέσεις.

    Επί τη ευκαιρία, το "εγώ σου αρέσω", μπορεί να ειπωθεί κάπως έτσι: "εγώ αρέσομαι σε εσένα"; Δεν το λέμε στην Αθήνα, αλλά μήπως το λένε κάπου αλλού; Ή μήπως είναι αρχαία Ελληνικά; Ή απλά με παρασύρει σε ψευδαισθήσεις το αρέσκω - αρέσκομαι;
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Thank you. But the English word does not have this meaning. An "intransitive verb" does not have a direct object, but it can have indirect objects. (In German, "intransitives Verb" means the same as the English term.)
    Yes, I know. Also, if a verb takes two objects, one in dative and one in genitive (ancient Greek), we say that the genitive is the direct object.

    περπατώ - go for a walk
    κοιμάμαι - sleep
    Those verbs we call intransitive.
     

    larshgf

    Senior Member
    Danish
    I see, you use(d) the word "(in)transitive" for the ("Greek") meaning of "αμετάβατος / μεταβατικός". Obviously there are no other English or Greek words which could serve to distinguish the slightly different concepts.
    Thanks for pointing it out. I should have explained that.
    Sorry - I did'nt catch this. Could you explain the difference between intransitive and αμετάβατος, and between transitive and μεταβατικός?
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Could you explain the difference between intransitive and αμετάβατος, and between transitive and μεταβατικός?
    "English" meanings:
    "transitive": "has a direct object"
    "intransitive": "has no direct object"

    "Greek" meanings:
    "μεταβατικός": "has an object"
    "αμετάβατος": "has no object"

    Nevertheless, "transitive" and "intransitive" are translated as "μεταβατικός" and "αμετάβατος" (probably because they are very related, etymologically).
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Therefore, the German "gefallen" is intransitive, e.g. "das gefällt mir" (μου αρέσει/Ι like it), because "mir" is dative.
    Is there a similar example in English? In this wikipedia article about intransitive verbs, all verbs that are intransitive in English are also in Greek intransitive and all verbs that are transitive in English are also in Greek transitive.
    Intransitive verb - Wikipedia
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Again, I am not sure which kind of "intransitivity" you mean, the "English" oder the "Greek" one.
    What about the example "μου χαμογέλασε - (s)he smiled at me"?
    I mean the common part. For example, "run" ("My dog ran.") is in both English and Greek intrasitive and "watch" ("We watched a movie last night.") is in both languages transitive.
    Yes, "smile"/"χαμογελώ" is an example I was looking for. Thanks.
     

    Tr05

    Senior Member
    Greek - Greece
    μου αρέσει να ταξιδέψω
    το να ταξιδέψω μου αρέσει (I think this is correct, but not without the "το")
    I hope I didn't miss any comment correcting this, but the only correct option after "μου αρέσει" (present tense) is the present subjunctive, namely "Μου αρέσει να ταξιδεύω/να γράφω/να τρέχω..." and not the aorist subjunctive, "...να ταξιδέψω/να γράψω/να τρέξω...".

    Τhe latter is possible (along with the present subjunctive) in cases such as "Θα μου άρεσε να..." (="It would be nice to", "I would like to...", conditional), depending on what the speaker's intention is:

    "Θα μου άρεσε να ταξιδεύω στο Μεξικό" (=I would like/It would be nice to travel to Mexico). Some form of repetition is implied in this case (once in a while/every week/5 times a month/20 times a year)

    "Θα μου άρεσε να ταξιδέψω στο Μεξικό" (="I would like/It would be nice to travel to Mexico"). In this case, the action is treated as a one-off, as something that -eventually- will be concluded... "It would be nice/I would like to go there once/twice/this summer/next year/in 10 years/in the summer and stay there for some time".
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Hi,
    a kind of "inverted word order"
    Obviously, larshgf has in mind the normal English (and probably Danish) word order with Subject-Predicate, whereas in Greek the word order is flexible and can be Predicate-Subject, depending on various factors, such as the most prominent element of the speech, whether the information given in the sentence is totally or partly new, the intonation etc.

    - the dress fits the lady (not "the dress goes to her")
    - he miss his wife (not "his wife is gone to him")
    Of course, the verb πάει in "της πάει το φόρεμα" doesn't have the meaning of "πηγαίνω/πάω" (to move or travel [from one place to another]), but the meaning of "ταιριάζω" (to fit). The verb λείπει in "του λείπει η γυναίκα του" means "is absent [to his discontent]", not necessarily meaning that his wife abandoned him; she may be away for various reasons.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    A direct object is not only in αιτιατική, but also in γενική, e.g. Ο Γιώργος μοιάζει του πατέρα μας (George resembles our father). Αυτό άπτεται των ατομικών δικαιωμάτων του (This has to do with his personal rights).

    the πτώση αιτιατική alone is not enough to recognize a direct object: If it is combined with a preposition, it is not a direct object.
    the πτώση αιτιατική alone is not enough to recognize a direct object: What else do you think is needed along with αιτιατική to recognise it as a direct object?
    If it is combined with a preposition, it is not a direct object. This is correct.

    περπατώ - go for a walk
    περπατώ = walk :tick: go for a walk :cross:

    And finally pronouns always come before the verb in Greek (except in the imperative)
    I can't see how you came to stress always, Ελληνοφάκελε. This is true only when the weak form of the personal pronoun is used as object of the verb. The strong form comes after the verb, unless you want to stress and contradistinguish the noun meant by it from another; in this case, it comes before the verb. The same happens in the imperative.
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Is there a Greek word for "intransitive" in this sense? Some dictionaries indicate "αμετάβατος" as a translation, but the definition of "αμετάβατο ρήμα" here excludes objects of any kind, not only the direct objects.
    Firstly, I apologize for the number of comments, but I didn’t happen to read the specific thread earlier.

    Αγαπητέ διαφορετικέ,

    Regarding Greek syntax, I hope the following will help eliminate a misunderstanding.

    With impersonal verbs (like φαίνεται, χρειάζεται, πρέπει etc) and impersonal expressions (like είναι εύκολο, είναι δύσκολο, είναι αδύνατο etc), but also with intransitive [as here αρέσει is] and transitive verbs, a genitive of a noun or, usually, a personal pronoun, which is not their object, is often connected. It shows that a person emotionally participates in what the verb denotes or receives benefit or undergoes harm from what the sentence means and is called γενική προσωπική (=genitive personal). Because the emotions of this personal participation are usually joy/pleasure or discontent, benefit or harm, this genitive is called γενική χαριστική or αντιχαριστική accordinly (=freely translated as “genitive pleasing” or “harmful”). Consequently, this genitive as in "Μου αρέσει το φαγητό" should never be confused with an indirect object.

    Indicative examples: Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά. Σου χαϊδεύει ποτέ το κεφάλι η μαμά σου; Μου είναι δύσκολο να έρθω. -Η Μαρία αγόρασε καινούργιο φόρεμα. -Ναι, αλλά της είναι στενό. Του χάλασαν τα σχέδια. Του λείπει η γυναίκα του.

    Note that this structure comes down from AG, where the dative case (as dative personal) had the place of the MG genitive, e.g. Ὡς καλός μοι ὁ πάππος (=What a handsome man - for my pleasure- my grandpa is!) Πᾶς ἀνὴρ ἑαυτῷ πονεῖ (=Every man strives for himself).

    See Συντακτικό της Αρχαίας Ελληνικής, Α, Β, Γ Λυκείου, Α. Β. Μουμτζάκης
    Συντακτικό της Νέας Ελληνικής, Α, Β, Γ Γυμνασίου, Συντακτική Ομάδα
    Συνοπτική Γραμματική της Νέας Ελληνικής, Δομολειτουργική- Επικοινωνιακή, Χρ. Κλαίρης-Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης
     
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    Perseas

    Senior Member
    [...]
    this genitive is called γενική χαριστική or αντιχαριστική accordinly (=freely translated as “genitive pleasing” or “harmful”). Consequently, this genitive as in "Μου αρέσει το φαγητό" should never be confused with an indirect object.

    [...]
    Συνοπτική Γραμματική της Νέας Ελληνικής, Δομολειτουργική- Επικοινωνιακή, Χρ. Κλαίρης-Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης
    About the syntax of the verb "αρέσω:
    In "Γραμματική της Νέας Ελληνικής" of Χρ. Κλαίρης-Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης" (2014: 608), there is the example "Αν σου αρέσουν τα θαλασσινά, έχει ένα καταπληκτικό ταβερνάκι στην παραλία", where the genitive "σου" is called object.
     
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    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    the πτώση αιτιατική alone is not enough to recognize a direct object: What else do you think is needed along with αιτιατική to recognise it as a direct object?
    If it is combined with a preposition, it is not a direct object. This is correct.
    "What else is needed": I meant that which followed, also quoted by you: It must not be combined with a preposition.

    On the other hand, you have explained that an object in genitive can also be called a direct object:
    A direct object is not only in αιτιατική, but also in γενική, e.g. Ο Γιώργος μοιάζει του πατέρα μας (George resembles our father).
    I did not know this. So how can we recognize a direct object (in modern Greek)?

    περπατώ = walk :tick: go for a walk :cross:
    Yes, "walk" is the main meaning of περπατώ (but I think it can also mean "go for a walk" or "κάνω περίπατο", at least this dictionary says so).

    Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά.
    Such expressions are also possible in German, although this example ("Küss mir die Kinder.") might sound a little outdated or maybe poetic.

    Well, there seems to be a disagreement if "μου" in this example should be called an object.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Well, there seems to be a disagreement if "μου" in this example should be called an object.
    In "Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά", "μου" is not an object, it's "γενική προσωπική" (genitive personal).
    Also, in "Μου είναι αδύνατο να κάνω αυτό", "Να μου ταΐσεις το σκυλί".
     
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    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    In "Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά", "μου" is not an object, it's "γενική προσωπική" (genitive personal).
    Also, in "Μου είναι αδύνατο να κάνω αυτό", "Να μου ταΐσεις το σκυλί".
    Thank you, Perseas. So the disagreement concerns only "μου" in "μου αρέσει", doesn't it?
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Thank you, Perseas. So the disagreement concerns only "μου" in "μου αρέσει", doesn't it?
    According to CLAIRIS/BABINIOTIS grammar, the verbs αρέσω, μυρίζω, ανήκω, ταιριάζω, μοιάζω, etc. take object in genitive (or a prepositional object).

    Αυτό το ψάρι μου αρέσει.
    Μου μυρίζει κάτι.
    Αυτό μου ανήκει.
    Ο Πέτρος μοιάζει του πατέρα του.
    Αυτό το κουστούμι δεν του ταιριάζει.

    In the following sentences the genitives are not objects, but genitives of person. (Some of these examples are from another book).
    Μου τελείωσαν τα λεφτά.
    Του τακτοποίησε το γραφείο.
    Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά.
    Μου είναι αδύνατο να το κάνω αυτό.
    Σου χαϊδεύει το κεφάλι.
     
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    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Thank you for looking it up, Perseas.

    I think I see the difference: In the second group of examples, the verb is not directly connected to the pronoun. The pronouns fit ioanell's description:
    It shows that a person emotionally participates in what the verb denotes or receives benefit or undergoes harm from what the sentence means

    In the example "σου δίνω τα κλειδιά", "σου" looks like "a person who receives benefit". But it is more "directly" connected to the verb, so it is called an "object", do you agree?
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    "What else is needed": I meant that which followed, also quoted by you: It must not be combined with a preposition.
    To be frank, some modern grammars (among them Babiniotis's) also accept the structure "preposition + accusative" as direct object in a number of cases.

    On the other hand, you have explained that an object in genitive can also be called a direct object:
    They have no direct object (αιτιατική), but only one in γενική.
    Probably most of them also don't have an indirect (genitive) object:

    Points like the above which might lead to a more general conclusion that the direct object is always in αιτιατική made necessary my pointing out that αιτιατική is not the only case in which the direct object can be; and I quoted the relevant examples. Direct objects in genitive are few in comparison with those in accusative, nevertheless they exist.

    So how can we recognize a direct object (in modern Greek)?
    • The object of the (monotransitive) verb is in the accusative.
    • The object of the (monotransitive) verb is in the genitive or it can alternatively be a prepositional phrase.
    • When the verb (ditransitive) has two objects, the one in the accusative case is the direct object. The indirect object is in the genitive case or it can alternatively be a prepositional phrase.
    • When the verb (ditransitive) has both its objects in the accusative case, the one denoting a person is the direct object. The indirect object denoting a thing is also in the accusative case or it can alternatively be a prepositional phrase.
    Yes, "walk" is the main meaning of περπατώ (but I think it can also mean "go for a walk" or "κάνω περίπατο", at least this dictionary says so).
    In the case we are talking about, you skipped the first two meanings and jumped directly to the third one. I thought that this might be somewhat misleading for others who don’t know the language at the level you do. That was the meaning of my correction.

    Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά.
    Well, there seems to be a disagreement if "μου" in this example should be called an object.
    This example was drawn unchanged directly from the Chapter “Γενική Προσωπική” of the Συντακτικό της Νέας Ελληνικής, Α, Β, Γ Γυμνασίου, του ΟΕΔΒ.
     
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    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    About the syntax of the verb "αρέσω:
    In "Γραμματική της Νέας Ελληνικής" of Χρ. Κλαίρης-Γ. Μπαμπινιώτης" (2014: 608), there is the example "Αν σου αρέσουν τα θαλασσινά, έχει ένα καταπληκτικό ταβερνάκι στην παραλία", where the genitive "σου" is called object.
    Thank you, Perseas. It is really quite strange that Babiniotis in his Dictionary (at least in two different editions I own) characterizes αρέσω as an intransitive verb, which means is has no object whatsoever, and in his Grammar as a transitive one, which of course has an object.
    Unfortunately, the photo showing the relevant entry of the dictionary can't be uploaded due to its large size, as the system says.
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    Thanks a lot for your explanations, ioanell.

    In German, it is simple (as far as I know): the direct object is the one in accusative, without preposition. In Greek, it seems more complicated. The direct object appears in different shapes (cases, and sometimes with prepositions). This leads me to the question: Why do we distinguish "direct" from "indirect" objects at all? (I cannot answer this question even for the German language or grammar.)

    I thought that this might be somewhat misleading for others
    I agree and I understand your correction. (The reason for this translation of mine was the fact that I translated to Greek, not from Greek. Which means that the only Greek translation of "go for a walk" which came to my mind was "παρπατώ".)
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    In the example "σου δίνω τα κλειδιά", "σου" looks like "a person who receives benefit". But it is more "directly" connected to the verb, so it is called an "object", do you agree?
    The object and the gentive referring to a person have a different function.
    The object belongs to the core of the sentence, it's part of the predicate. For example: She dances. She reads a book. Here the predicates are dances (verb) and reads a book (verb and object).
    On the other hand, the genitive referring to a person (γενική προσωπική) indicates that this person is in some way closely involved in the action expressed by the verb. For example: "Να μου φιλήσεις τα παιδιά". The verb "φιλώ" exerts its action on "τα παιδιά" which is the object, not on "μου", which denotes that I am only somehow involved in the verb's action.

    This leads me to the question: Why do we distinguish "direct" from "indirect" objects at all? (I cannot answer this question even for the German language or grammar.)
    I think German uses the terms "Akkusativobjekt", "Dativobjekt", "Genitivobjekt" , which makes things more clear.

    Thank you, Perseas. It is really quite strange that Babiniotis in his Dictionary (at least in two different editions I own) characterizes αρέσω as an intransitive verb, which means is has no object whatsoever, and in his Grammar as a transitive one, which of course has an object.
    Unfortunately, the photo showing the relevant entry of the dictionary can't be uploaded due to its large size, as the system says.
    Yes, I looked it up in the dictionary. You're right, ioanell.
     

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    Isn't "to please" the English equivalent of αρέσω? Don't people say things like "it pleases me?" Or "I'm pleased with/by something..."
     

    ioanell

    Senior Member
    Greek
    Hi,
    This leads me to the question: Why do we distinguish "direct" from "indirect" objects at all? (I cannot answer this question even for the German language or grammar.)
    διαφορετικέ, I don’t know if this question of yours in #43, which is a matter of syntactical analysis, cancels and takes back your view expressed in #20 and #27 above, ie. “…the English word does not have this meaning. An "intransitive verb" does not have a direct object, but it can have indirect objects. (In German, "intransitives Verb" means the same as the English term.)”. If this view is still in force, I ‘m afraid there will be a disagreement over it and I will need some further explanations along with examples, anyway a fruitful discussion in the end.
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    Isn't "to please" the English equivalent of αρέσω? Don't people say things like "it pleases me?" Or "I'm pleased with/by something..."
    I think "I like something" is more common, but "it pleases me" has similar structure with "αυτό μου αρέσει". Native speakers of English can answer better, anyway.
     

    διαφορετικός

    Senior Member
    Swiss German - Switzerland
    there will be a disagreement over it
    Maybe it is only a misunderstanding or lack of understanding ...
    Direct objects in genitive are few in comparison with those in accusative, nevertheless they exist.
    • The object of the (monotransitive) verb is in the accusative.
    • The object of the (monotransitive) verb is in the genitive or it can alternatively be a prepositional phrase.
    I think this means that direct objects in Greek can be in the accusative, in the genitive or in a prepositional phrase. Consequently I cannot deduce the form of the object from the fact that it is a direct object.

    In contrast, in English and in German, as far as I know, the direct (and the indirect) object (in German rather "Akkusativobjekt" and "Dativobjekt") always has a known form (e.g. the direct object in English is never introduced with a preposition). But your above description seems to say that this is not true in Greek. This leads to the following questions:
    • Is there a ("simple") definition (that I might not know) of "direct object" and "indirect object"?
    • What is the purpose of talking about the type (direct / indirect) of an object, if it does not determine its form (in the Greek language)?
    I hope you can see what is my problem here.

    PS:
    I don’t know if this question of yours in #43, which is a matter of syntactical analysis, cancels and takes back your view expressed in #20 and #27 above
    These messages of mine are contradictory, I agree: I asked why we distinguish "direct" from "indirect" objects, although I had done so myself. Well, in German we can probably do without these terms and just use the terms "accusative object" and "dative object". In English however, it seems to make more sense, since there are no such cases (accusative, dative). In Greek: I am not sure.
     
    Last edited:

    ianis

    Senior Member
    Portuguese - Portugal
    I think "I like something" is more common, but "it pleases me" has similar structure with "αυτό μου αρέσει". Native speakers of English can answer better, anyway.
    Thanks.
    I was thinking that maybe what causes strangeness is in one case (like) being the action of liking and in the other (please/αρέσω) the action of making oneself liked. But the second being rendered to English as the first which indeed results in an inversion of roles in terms of who is performing the action.

    In Portuguese there is also an equivalent probably originated from Greek which is agradar. But we put the me after the word, Brazilians, if they use the word, are likely to put the me before just like in greek.



    BTW just one basic question. I heard that in some parts of Greece με and σε replaced μου/σου are με αρέσει/ σε αρέσει used in those parts?
     

    Perseas

    Senior Member
    I was thinking that maybe what causes strangeness is in one case (like) being the action of liking and in the other (please/αρέσω) the action of making oneself liked. But the second being rendered to English as the first which indeed results in an inversion of roles in terms of who is performing the action.
    I understand what you say. Maybe, "it pleases me" is better rendered "με ευχαριστεί".

    BTW just one basic question. I heard that in some parts of Greece με and σε replaced μου/σου are με αρέσει/ σε αρέσει used in those parts?
    Yes, in Thessaloniki, for example.
    "με αρέσει" - Αναζήτηση Google
     
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