Сильней vs. Сильнее

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Друг

New Member
English - America
Hello all,

Quick question. I've been seeing this more and more lately, and am not quite sure what to make of it. This song I've found is called "ночью ты кричишь сильней"... but wouldn't it make more sense if it were "ночью ты кричишь сильнее?" What's the difference?

I also saw this in a Russian film I recently watched - I saw an adjective in what appeared to be the genitive case when logically (to me) it should be in the "comparative" I think it's called (like лучше, больше, etc)..

Thanks in advance!
 
  • bedtimestorynyc

    Senior Member
    Russian
    сильней is the colloquial version of сильнее. but сильнее is also used colloquially.
    you will never see сильней in newspapers, scientific literature, etc.
     

    erkur

    Member
    Kazakh Russian
    bedtimestorynyc is right and the interesting thing is you can do that with any comparative formed that way, and when you speak quickly both forms are pronounced the same.
     
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    Друг

    New Member
    English - America
    Thanks a lot for the explanations, guys.

    @erkur: yeah, they really do sound similar.

    Is it just the feminine genitive (as well as prepositional / instrumental / dative) form of the adjective?
     

    bedtimestorynyc

    Senior Member
    Russian
    сильнее is the comparative form of the adjective сильный/cильная/сильное/сильные or to the adverb сильно.

    it has nothing to do with the gender or anything else you mentioned.
     

    Друг

    New Member
    English - America
    Okay, but how do you form the more colloquial version of сильнее, сильней?

    Like... большей? маленькей? отличней?
     
    "сильней" is the colloquial version of "сильнее". But "сильнее" is also used colloquially.
    you will never see "сильней" in newspapers, scientific literature, etc.

    I completely agree with this point of view. "Сильней" is used in conversational speech. However, in some books one, probably, can come across "сильней". Of course, not in scientific sources of information, but in some fiction, for instance, or in some adolescent magazines.
     

    bedtimestorynyc

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Okay, but how do you form the more colloquial version of сильнее, сильней?

    Like... большей? маленькей? отличней?
    Out of the examples I just pulled out of my head (Russian is my native language, I never had to learn it by rules), it sounds like any comparative form of an adjective or an adverb in Russian that ends with "-ee", could end with "-ей" in the colloquial speech, of course:
    краснее - красней, слабее - слабей, etc. Again, ONLY whatever ends with "-ee".

    You cannot say "большей" because the comparative form of "большой" is "больше". It ends with one "-e". You cannot say "маленькей", because the comparative form of the word "маленький" is "меньше".
     
    Some comments on post 10 above:

    Indeed, it is impossible to use the words "большей" and "маленькей" as stated above. Below I have given some errorneous examples and that which demonstrate the correct usage of the comparative form:

    Первое дерево было большое. Второе казалось большей :cross:
    Первое дерево было большое. Второе казалось больше :tick:

    Первое дерево было маленькое. Второе казалось маленькей/меньшей :cross:
    Первое дерево было большое. Второе казалось меньше :tick:

    However, the words "большей", "меньшей" MAY BE used in somewhat another contexts:

    1. Пространство большей размерности, чем .... :tick:
    2. Пространство меньшей размерности, чем ... :tick:
    3. Озеро большей глубины, чем ... :tick:
    4. Озеро меньшей глубины, чем ... :tick:

    It is also possible to use these words without the additional explanatory part "чем ..."

    1. Для решения этой задачи необходимо перейти в пространство большей/меньшей размерности
    2. Для использования такого оборудования необходиа река большей/меньшей глубины

    It is difficult for me now to deduce a general rule regarding the usage of these words now but I will think about it and then suggest my ideas.
     

    Dmitry71

    Member
    Russian
    Второе казалось больше
    - here больше is a comparative degree of the adjective большой, and it does not have cases
    Пространство большей размерности
    - here большей is the genitive case of the adjective больший (e.g. пространство большего объема - same adjective in another case)
     
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    Well, I think, probably, we have found the key to to the door: when the word is an adverb like "больше" we do not change its original form. When it is an adjective, it is possible to change its ending like "больший". However, I am still not sure that the rule is complete and correct. There could be exceptions and we could also have missed some other cases. So the best way to find the rule - to give more examples. Probably, they will help us to produce this rule.
     

    Dmitry71

    Member
    Russian
    strictly speaking, only nouns have cases and adjectives change their endings depending on the noun case used. However, generally the explanation is good.
    Не могу с Вами согласиться

    Имя прилагательное – это часть речи, обозначающая непроцессуальный признак предмета и выражающая это значение в словоизменительных морфологических категориях рода, числа и падежа - Институт Русского Языка Академии Наук СССР

    Прилагательное - часть речи, включающая слова, обозначающие качество, свойство или принадлежность предметов и изменяющиеся по родам, падежам и числам - Современный толковый словарь русского языка Ефремовой

    Список можно продолжать..

    У прилагательных падеж зависит от падежа существительного, с которым это прилагательное согласуется. Но обе категории - и существительные, и прилагательные - изменяются по падежам.

     
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    OK. Since you have provided the pieces of entries from grammar books I agree. However, I thought that cases were the attribute of nouns only but now I see that they are typical of adjectives as well. Thanks for the references.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    ее и ей в прилагательных сравнительной степени не различаются ничем, они равноправны, хотя ее - более литературный вариант. Но лень-то одолевает, всех тянет на сокращения, особенно в длинных словах;) В сущности это один и тот же суффикс.
    ночь темнее/ночь темней
    яблоко краснее/красней
    комиссар злее/злей
    нож тупее/тупей

    Хотя для меня полная фрма(ее) звучит приятнее.
     
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