Хлеб (last consonant voicelessing)

Sobakus

Senior Member
There is a forvo reading of на моих внучат where the х sounds voiced: на моих внучат pronunciation: How to pronounce на моих внучат in Russian
I'd call this half-voiced - I'm struggling to put it squarely into either camp, but there's no voicing there ordinarily. I think it has to do with the v-medial cluster and the awkward sonority ordering inside it, /xvn/, lower-higher-lower. At least /v/ should count as more sonorous than /n/ if it's phonologically a sonorant; as a fricative it should be lower. Maybe this ambiguity is also to blame.

p.s.: unlike Awwal12, it doesn't sound weird to me - it would if it were fully voiced.
 
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  • pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    I've just noticed Dahl's entry in Wikipedia - totally incorrectly given as Vladimir Dal there - and the IPA given for his name is [vlɐˈdʲimʲɪr ɨˈvanəvʲɪdʑ ˈdalʲ], showing voicing of the final consonant of Иванович.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    I've just noticed Dahl's entry in Wikipedia - totally incorrectly given as Vladimir Dal there - and the IPA given for his name is [vlɐˈdʲimʲɪr ɨˈvanəvʲɪdʑ ˈdalʲ], showing voicing of the final consonant of Иванович.
    I think although"/…vʲɪdʑ ˈdalʲ/" is possible and natural in smooth and fairly quick speech, such as in everyday conversation, it'd be better to be transcribed as /… ɨˈvanəvʲtɕ ˈdalʲ/ there in the context, as /…vʲtɕ ˈdalʲ/ is the original pronunciation and still possible in slower speech.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    I think although"/…vʲɪdʑ ˈdalʲ/" is possible and natural in smooth and fairly quick speech, such as in everyday conversation, it'd be better to be transcribed as /… ɨˈvanəvʲtɕ ˈdalʲ/ there in the context, as /…vʲtɕ ˈdalʲ/ is the original pronunciation and still possible in slower speech.
    This completely depends on the presence of the pause. If the name is pronounced together, the consonant can only be voiced, never voiceless. Otherwise it can only be voiceless. Speaking tempo has no influence on this. The together-pronunciation of names is clearly the default, so Wikipedia's transcription is good.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    This completely depends on the presence of the pause. If the name is pronounced together, the consonant can only be voiced, never voiceless. Otherwise it can only be voiceless. Speaking tempo has no influence on this. The together-pronunciation of names is clearly the default, so Wikipedia's transcription is good.
    Basically what I meant to say, consistent with my previous discussion, and not trying to steal your opinion😃. I was avoiding using the word "pause" so as not to collide head-on with some discussion participants, although that's not serious at all.

    But I don't think the speaking tempo has nothing to do with the pause. Quick speech means reducing the span of time of pauses between words and usually between phrases, besides likely shortening of the sounds, especially vowels.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Basically what I meant to say, consistent with my previous discussion, and not trying to steal your opinion😃. I was avoiding using the word "pause" so as not to collide head-on with some discussion participants, although that's not serious at all.

    But I don't think the speaking tempo has nothing to do with the pause. Quick speech means reducing the span of time of pauses between words and usually between phrases, besides likely shortening of the sounds, especially vowels.
    But I thought we were on the same page about there being no pauses between words in Russian inside the Intonational Phonological Phrase (got that wrong in the earlier messages), unlike in Chinese - you said it yourself. Accordingly, speech tempo does not increase or reduce them. You can speak totally in slow motion and still group words into PPs, which among other things means there will be no pauses between them. When the last consonant of Иванович occurs inside the same PP as the first consonant of Даль, the two consonants come into contact, and they have to assimilate by voicing. This assimilation is categorical and speed-independent. What happens at higher speech tempos is that pauses between PPs (i.e. inside the Intonational Phrase) as well as IPs (inside the Utterance) can get deleted as well, and the consonants come into contact, with the same result.
    1-s2.0-S0149763416304055-gr3.jpg
     
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    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    But I thought we were on the same page about there being no pauses between words in Russian inside an Intonational Phrase, unlike in Chinese - you said it yourself. Accordingly, speech tempo does not increase or reduce them. You can speak totally in slow motion and still group words into IPs, which among other things means there will be no pauses. When the last consonant of Иванович occurs inside the same IP as the first consonant of Даль, they will have to assimilate by voicing. This assimilation is categorical.
    It is worth pointing out it is actually Иванныч...
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    But I thought we were on the same page about there being no pauses between words in Russian inside the Intonational Phonological Phrase (got that wrong in the earlier messages), unlike in Chinese - you said it yourself. Accordingly, speech tempo does not increase or reduce them. You can speak totally in slow motion and still group words into PPs, which among other things means there will be no pauses between them. When the last consonant of Иванович occurs inside the same PP as the first consonant of Даль, they have to assimilate by voicing. This assimilation is categorical and speed-independent. What happens at higher speech tempos is that pauses between PPs (i.e. inside the Intonational Phrase) may be deleted as well, with the same result.
    View attachment 72164
    I like the chart.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    This is the first time that I've tried to attatch a file to the post in this forum. The pop-up message said the file extention was not one of the allowed. It said .m4a is allowed and my file was just with the same extension. Can anybody help me with that?
     
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    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    This is the first time that I try to attatch a file to the post in this forum. The pop-up message said the file extention was not one of the allowed. It said .m4a is allowed and my file was just with the same extension. Can anybody help me with that?
    I suggest using Dropbox, Google Drive, OneDrive or some other file storage with direct playback.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Thank you and I've give the link to listen to the audio.
    Please check my pronunciation of добродетельный and point out the imperfections or mistakes.
    Oh my, that website is something else - it plays sponsored music ads both before and after playing what you actually want to hear! To skip the before-ad, you need to click on the big playback button again, and then you have to manually stop the post-ad or you get bad music blasted into your ears. Please have mercy on us and use a normal file storage! :thank you:

    The only thing that stands out as incorrect in your recording is the /r/, which sounds slurred and retroflex (curled-back) as in Chinese. It's difficult to judge the correct voicing of the stops because there's too few of them and there's no variety of environments - word- and phrase-initial, medial, final.

    Do get accurate feedback you need to pick a small passage of text - even a couple of sentences will do. The important thing is that we should be able to hear voiced and voiceless consonants in different environments, so we can tell whether you're making a proper contrast between them.
    It doesn't seem difficult for me to make the hard voiced б, д, г, but I have difficulty to make the soft ones of them.
    Just the voiced ones and not the voiceless? That would be really strange, as they're articulated practically identially, while voicing is completely separate and happens way up your vocal tract. If it's just the softness that makes you stumble, you should create a separate topic for discussing that.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    Oh my, that website is something else - it plays sponsored music ads both before and after playing what you actually want to hear! To skip the before-ad, you need to click on the big playback button again, and then you have to manually stop the post-ad or you get bad music blasted into your ears. Please have mercy on us and use a normal file storage! :thank you:

    The only thing that stands out as incorrect in your recording is the /r/, which sounds slurred and retroflex (curled-back) as in Chinese. It's difficult to judge the correct voicing of the stops because there's too few of them and there's no variety of environments - word- and phrase-initial, medial, final.

    Do get accurate feedback you need to pick a small passage of text - even a couple of sentences will do. The important thing is that we should be able to hear voiced and voiceless consonants in different environments, so we can tell whether you're making a proper contrast between them.

    Just the voiced ones and not the voiceless? That would be really strange, as they're articulated practically identially, while voicing is completely separate and happens way up your vocal tract. If it's just the softness that makes you stumble, you should create a separate topic for discussing that.
    Thank you very much for bothering to listen to and check my pronunciation.

    The previous audio-sharing website is really inconvenient and even boring. I've found a new one and renewed the second link to my pronunciation there at the site. I think I'll offer more pronunciations/aloud-reading later.

    The reason for the difficulty for me to make voiced stops, I think, is to involuntarily or subconsciously put a glottal stop at the beginning of a stop, which makes the vocal folds not vibrate initially, that is, only voiceless stops are produced. This kind of phonation is typical in Chinese pronunciation, for fear of voicing, and that draws strong influence on my Russian pronunciation.

    How ever, knowing how is one thing; to acquire a Russian phonational habit is another. It takes time and effort. It seems that for me the palatalization is apt to trigger off the glottal stop. Strange may it be, but probably true.
     
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    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    As for the pronunciation of P /r/, that is a story. Actually I've been teaching it 😂 to people who are troubled by making the sound (, with the tongue not to set out to vibrate). And then they've been able to make much better trills than me, 🙄 as I have a short, round and thick tongue so that it does not easily trill. My tongue tip can only reach out of the mouth as far as one centimeter while most people can reach out three centimeters or more with ease. I can manage to make a decent or fair trill, with quite some effort and a bit awkward position though. So I make flap much more than trill. And as the trill is difficult for my tongue, I think I'll not be trying to make the soft, continuous, lovely-sounding trill that reminds you the sound of the butterfly fluttering its wings. I envy those people who have long, thin and soft tongues that easily make the perfect trill, but I don't covet the same.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    By the way, to respond to your earnest regard for my pronunciation of soft consonants, I'd like to say that I really felt some difficulty at first in making certain soft consonants, but I then found a way to cope with it: just to imagine to make a following и/й of the (hard) consonant and the middle tongue will easily and naturally raise to a proper position to make the counterpart soft one.

    ( Quite some part of my posts are based on my personal practice and understanding. Discussion is welcomed.)
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    It doesn't seem difficult for me to make the hard voiced б, д, г, but I have difficulty to make the soft ones of them. A new pronunciation of добродетельный (edit: link).
    I'm not a native speaker and so cannot make any cogent comments. But the replies you received all focused on the /r/. But I heard that as добротетельный, with /t/ and not /d/. I may be wrong. Maybe the native speakers can comment on the first medial д in particular and comment on whether it sounded like т or not. Note: I'm also a learner and am not claiming my version would be better, but you specifically welcome comments.
     
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    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    @C.S.Hy Your theory about pre-glottalised stops in Mandarin sounds plausible in general - Googling tells me it's possible that Old Chinese had pre-glottalised stops, and Wu even has pre-glottalised sonorants. It would fit with your observation that Chinese is very strict on marking phonetic word boundaries. Russian articulation is the exact opposite of that - I don't think we have any glottal articulations at all, and glottal stops are used only in very carefully articulated speech for the sake of distinction and emphasis. Russian needs to be slurred to sound proper.

    I would like to avoid derailing this topic by discussing /r/. I'll just mention that most Russian /r/s are taps and the occasional trills are no longer than 3 vibrations.
    I'm not a native speaker and so cannot make any cogent comments. But the replies you received all focused on the /r/. But I heard that as добротетельный, with /t/ and not /d/. I may be wrong. Maybe the native speakers can comment on the first medial д in particular and comment on whether it sounded like т or not. Note: I'm also learner and am not claiming my version would be better, but you specifically welcome comments.
    Your observation is in fact totally correct, but I decided not to focus on this because even the initial /d/ sounded under-voiced to me. That medial /t/ sounds mushy, like it's even articulated further back – alveolar when it should be dental. I'll simply repeat however that I don't think it's appropriate to make extended comments on this from a single recording of a single word. A longer and more varied recording is needed to generalise. For what it's worth, in my experience, few Chinese natives get voiced stops correct all of the time, in Russian or otherwise.
    It doesn't seem difficult for me to make the hard voiced б, д, г, but I have difficulty to make the soft ones of them. A new pronunciation of добродетельный (edit: link).
    Unfortunatley it's "Page not found" for me - perhaps the recording was deleted because this is a website for uploading sound samples for use in audio production. You should really consider using Dropbox - download a VPN extension if it's blocked where you are.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    You can also use vocaroo.com for small audio files.
    I just tried the website only to find it was blocked, then through a VPN I got there and was surprised: the service was extraordinarily easy and convenient to use. Here is a recording:Добродетельный (readings on that website allegedly to be deleted every few months. This is just a try). And the recording clarity is rather high because the service has its own denoiser. I think I'll bookmark the site for future temporary and occasional use.
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    There is no such word as "voicelessing" in English. It's a very irritating thread title as a result. "Voiceless" is not a verb. "Devoicing" would be correct here.
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    There is no such word as "voicelessing" in English. It's a very irritating thread title as a result. "Voiceless" is not a verb. "Devoicing" would be correct here.
    Yes, I agree. And where did it ("voicelessing") apprear as in a threat title?
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    Yes, I agree. And where did it ("voicelessing") apprear as in a threat title?
    The *thread title is "Хлеб (last consonant voicelessing)". You can edit it by clicking on the button at the top right of the thread.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Here is a recording:Добродетельный (readings on that website allegedly to be deleted every few months. This is just a try).
    Yep, same as pimlicodude has observed for the previous recording, you say /тете/ instead of /дете/. I suggest picking a sentence where changing the stop will change the meaning (called a minimal pair), pronouncing it several times and asking us to tell you which is which. Sounds that your language doesn't distinguish should be learned in this way - your brain must learn to associate the difference in sound with a difference in meaning.

    You can try pairs such as дом/том (house/tome), те́ло/де́ло (body/business), творе́ц/дворе́ц (creator/palace), бо́гу/бо́ку (god/anatomical side, Dative), ба́бочка/па́почка (butterfly/daddy), правый/бравый (right/gallant), коне́ц/гоне́ц (end/courier), лу́ка/лу́га (shooting-bow or onion/lawn, Genitive), кот/год (cat/year), крип/гриб (creep [slang]/mushroom), во́т и/во́ды (and so/waters).
     
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    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    Yep, same as pimlicodude has observed for the previous recording, you say /тете/ instead of /дете/. I suggest picking a sentence where changing the stop will change the mining (called a minimal pair), pronouncing it several times and asking us to tell you which is which. Sounds that your language doesn't distinguish should be learned in this way - your brain must learn to associate the difference in sound with a difference in meaning.

    You can try pairs such as дом/том (house/tome), те́ло/де́ло (body/business), творе́ц/дворе́ц (creator/palace), бо́гу/бо́ку (god/anatomical side, Dative), ба́бочка/па́почка (butterfly/daddy), правый/бравый (right/gallant), коне́ц/гоне́ц (end/courier), лу́ка/лу́га (shooting-bow or onion/lawn, Genitive).
    There's also the interesting pronunciation of этак as эдак (does the word да derive etymologically from так?).
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    These all sound correct as far as the stops are concerned (only во́т и was supposed to be pronounced together as во́ты). Now you need to build some phrases or sentences using these words, so that you have to concentrate on more than just one word, and preferrably so that the contrasting sound occurs in that phrase as well. For example:
    • Том и Дже́рри (дж is two consonants), дом и две́ри, дом в Твери́
    • де́ло лете́ло, а те́ло гляде́ло
    • творе́ц сотвори́л дворе́ц
    • с како́го бо́ку подойти́ к бо́гу?
    • бра́вый па́почка пойма́л ба́бочку
    • гоне́ц с луко́м дости́г конца́ лу́га
    • ну и крипо́вый гриб!
    • вот и во́ды!
    Remember that every initial и after final hard consonants is pronounced as ы.
    You still say добротетельный all 3 times =\
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    It's pretty good; to make д perfect, treat it as a temporary narrowing between two vowels like that in 'ое' (oje) - in both cases, vocal folds do not stop vibrating and there is only a really short and pretty gentle suppressing of airflow; for д, it differs only in that now it is the front part of the tongue which goes up (but, it is a pretty large spot, with energy centered closer to the middle so it does not become that concave as in English).
     

    C.S.Hy

    Senior Member
    Mandarin Chinese
    Video: speaking Russian in the Chinese way. 😄

    You may see that the Chinese girl is talking with every syllable separated from another, different from the Russian way in which sentences are spoken in the phonological word or intonational phrase.

    * The Chinese girl in the video is a Russian language teacher. Her Russian pronunciation is pretty good, and she's pretending a poor one only for shooting the video.

    * In Chinese pauses within an intonational/thought phrase are usually indicated/realized by lengthening the (nuclear) vowel rather than by silence. The syllable structure of Mandarin/standard Chinese is (Consonant)-(glide)-Vowel-(semi-vowel/nasal), roughly C-V. The glide is from the group /j, w, ɥ/, the semi-vowel is from /ɪ,ʊ/, and the nasal is from /n, ŋ/.
     
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