авторитет в народе / среди народа / у народа

pimlicodude

Senior Member
British English
This is also from Solzhenitsyn, quoting Gessen:
Кагалы, не пользуясь авторитетом в народе, поддерживали своё господство благодаря именно содействию правительства
Is it right to say авторитет в народе? I had assumed авторитет среди народа?
 
  • Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    The two phrases are synonymous.
    For the shade of meaning, see post #3.

    (Edited.)
     
    Last edited:

    GCRaistlin

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Здесь народ рассматривается как единая сущность, состоящая из множества единиц. Поэтому правильнее - авторитет в народе. Но: авторитет среди людей (среди множества отдельных сущностей).
     

    Enquiring Mind

    Senior Member
    English - the Queen's
    Экс-президент СССР подчеркнул, что в сложной международной обстановке и непростой обстановке внутри страны необходимо, чтобы глава государства имел большой авторитет у народа. (rossaprimavera.ru)
    "Aвторитет у народа" also looks like an option - there's an Ngram which, for all its shortcomings, probably tells us something.
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    "Aвторитет у народа" also looks like an option
    The verb used matters - as both авторитет and народ are its dependents.

    Пользоваться авторитетом у X sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X.
     
    Last edited:

    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Пользоваться авторитетом у X sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X.
    Sorry but I absolutely can't agree with that, both as a native speaker of Russian and due to the fact that "пользоваться авторитетом у" has occurred more than once in university manuals of Russian (including those published by Moscow University) and in various dictionaries (including those of idiomatic collocations).
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Sorry but I absolutely can't agree with that, both as a native speaker of Russian and due to the fact that "пользоваться авторитетом у" has occurred more than once in university manuals of Russian (including those published by Moscow University) and in various dictionaries (including those of idiomatic collocations).
    Agreed; probably my post was too categorical, I should have written "to my opinion".

    To my opinion, there is some internal inconsistency in the phrase.
    Пользоваться уважением у ... - This is consistent: they respect you, and you are "using" that.
    Пользоваться авторитетом у ... - does not look such according tho the pattern above, because авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject. It turns out that "авторитет у X" is an independent construction - but it cannot be used such way.

    This phrase as such is rather formal than casual, that's why I'm a bit sensitive about it. As for universities, I cannot say those are авторитет-s to me, for some reason :)
     
    Last edited:

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    Agreed; probably my post was too categorical, I should have written "to my opinion".

    To my opinion, there is some internal inconsistency in the phrase.
    Пользоваться уважением у ... - This is consistent: they respect you, and you are "using" that.
    Пользоваться авторитетом у ... - does not look such according tho the pattern above, because авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject.

    This phrase as such is more formal than casual, that's why I'm a bit sensitive about it. As for universities, I cannot say those are авторитет-s to me, for some reason :)
    So if you change the verb, it makes more sense to have у?
    There is a 6th grade essay on the Internet (for kids who want to cheat in school) called "Почему Владимир Мономах имел авторитет у народа?"
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    имел авторитет у народа?"
    This one at least does not create an associative ambiguity within the phrase.
    I'd say the issue is the word авторитет itself, which, as a semantical unit, is somewhat infelicitous in fitting in natural patterns. And, as you know, иметь X is basically not a native Russian pattern, but it exactly helps to overcome issues with many such notions, forcing them into a more rational construction.
     

    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    My opinion on the matter of possible (!) nuances:

    пользоваться авторитетом:
    • "в/на" usually refers to a real social group or an area of activity: на работе, в народе, во власти, в какой-то области (знаний/умений), в каких-то кругах, в каком-то обществе, в какой-то среде и т.п.;
    • "среди" refers to specific statistical groups only and implies a significant/sufficient number of people (unless otherwise stated): среди домохозяек, среди мясоедов, среди молодёжи, среди представителей какого-то класса и т.д.;
    • "у" is the most straightforward and natural way to refer to people: у них/него..., у некоторых, у значительного числа/количества и т.д..
    Of course, many nouns, when used in the plural or as collective nouns (such as "народ"), may be treated differently, based on how the speaker sees the group (s)he's talking about:

    В народе он пользуется авторитетом. (A specificity and unity of the group may be emphasized: e.g. "народ" vs. "власть", or "простой народ" vs. "элиты и/или элитарно настроенные граждане.)
    Среди народа он пользуется авторитетом. (Some partiality may be implied: "среди значительной части".)
    У народа он пользуется авторитетом. (Neutral, but less specific than the two other options.)
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I'd like to correct myself in #8:
    In пользоваться уважением у народа, that 'у' is as well logically something extra.
    It would be enough to use the genitive - пользоваться уважением народа - or, народным уважением; with that, and, a fair peasant who are free from the torture of formal language, would just say: народ его уважает. :)


    У народа он пользуется авторитетом
    And with topical fronting it sounds better.

    But:
    У народа он пользуется своим авторитетом :confused:
    versus
    Он пользуется своим авторитетом у народа.:tick:
    Which is, however, another meaning, as пользоваться gets the direct sense, but somehow reveals the vague nature of авторитет.
     

    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Пользоваться авторитетом у X sounds clumsy because that sounds as if taking it from X. <...> Авторитет has no verbal component and appears not as coming from those dependent people, but rather a quality of the subject.
    But is it a real quality of the subject, or merely something imaginary? ;) "Держать за авторитет" may well have its sad consequences: people may become less critical, more susceptible to manipulation, more compliant... Some "авторитеты" are eager to exploit all of that!

    (Just kidding. On a serious note, though, I barely see your point as valid in terms of normative usage.)
     

    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    It would be enough to use the genitive - пользоваться уважением народа - or, народным уважением; with that, and, a fair peasant who are free from the torture of formal language, would just say: народ его уважает. :)
    Brilliant!:thumbsup:
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    But is it a real quality of the subject, or merely something imaginary? ;)
    Yes it is; probably the tricky part is that it is the same as status - which is not a quality-in-itself as strength or beauty, but involves an impact on others- so complexity arises when the matter is not getting or losing that status but just having it as an attribute.
     
    Last edited:

    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Yes it is <...> complexity arises when the matter is not getting or losing that status but just having it as an attribute.
    :confused: This "attribute" is only existent when those holding him/her as an authority are around! As an objectively existing thing, it's primarily in their heads (and secondly, in the eyes of the observers, of which (s)he may be one).
     
    Top