в/на and a period of time

[dePrades]

Discussion split from here: http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1447972

Actually, my question is not concerned with первый and второй... but with в/на and a period of time...



I noticed that you say в прошлом году but на прошлом день and на прошлой неделе. When do I have to use в and на? I know that with неделя it's always на but what about the others? Any clue? Thanks for your help!

 

[morzh]

One would have to list all possible time periods and the preps for them.

And it is very tedious task.

For instance:

Год. (Year)
В году - 365 дней (there are 365 days in a year).
На год нам нужно 3 мешка картошки (we need 3 sacks of potatoes for one year).
За год мы истратили все наши запасы угля (We spent all of our coal supply in a year).
В этом году у меня родился ребенок (This year I had a baby born).

And this is not all. So what you're asking requires a pretty intensive effort.

 

[dePrades]

Morzh, first of all: thanks very much. Secondly, I don't pretend that you spend your next holidays working for me... however, I would appreciate any link to any webpage explaining prepositions + time in Russian (if someone has already spent his/her holidays working on that topic ;P). I'm not so interested in the difference between

На год нам нужно 3 мешка картошки (we need 3 sacks of potatoes for one year).
За год мы истратили все наши запасы угля (We spent all of our coal supply in a year).

I understand it, and it works the same for год, день, etc. My question is more about which preposition should I use when referring to a period of time preceded by прошлый or следующий or just without these words meaning "on Sunday". For example, in English I know that before days is "on" (on Monday), before months is "in" (in June) but with "next" and "last" there's no preposition (next Monday, last June)... In Russian it seems to be a preposition before these two words but I'm unable to find the right one every time I need to use this sentence in compositions, so I'm wondering if there's any kind of rule (besides native speakers' intuition) that could help a poor foreign student like me? Thanks for your "support"

 

[morzh]

Morzh, first of all: thanks very much. Secondly, I don't pretend that you spend your next holidays working for me... however, I would appreciate any link to any webpage explaining prepositions + time in Russian (if someone has already spent his/her holidays working on that topic ;P). I'm not so interested in the difference between



I understand it, and it works the same for год, день, etc. My question is more about which preposition should I use when referring to a period of time preceded by прошлый or следующий or just without these words meaning "on Sunday". For example, in English I know that before days is "on" (on Monday), before months is "in" (in June) but with "next" and "last" there's no preposition (next Monday, last June)... In Russian it seems to be a preposition before these two words but I'm unable to find the right one every time I need to use this sentence in compositions, so I'm wondering if there's any kind of rule (besides native speakers' intuition) that could help a poor foreign student like me? Thanks for your "support"

Gosh, I honestly don't know websites like that, but I'm sure someone here will point you to something somewhere.

Here is just one trick for you:

For example, when using "last" (last Sunday, last month) you can say it two ways:
Last Sunday I went to the park.
1. В прошлое воскресенье я пошел в парк. (lit. "in last Sunday")
2. Прошлым воскресеньем я пошел в парк. ("by last Sunday" - Sunday put in Instrumental)

These two mean the same.

 

[Maroseika]

but на прошлом день

Even прошлым днем (formally correct form) is hardly applicable in the sense of 'yesterday'. Usually we say вчера.

 

[morzh]

Even прошлым днем (formally correct form) is hardly applicable in the sense of 'yesterday'. Usually we say вчера.

I never even heard that one.
Actually, even "позапрошлым днем" I never heard either - it is "позавчера".

But. I have just googled it - it is in use. "Позапрошлым днем" is used (and, thinking of it - rightly so) when saying "датировано позапрошлым днем" - you cannot really say "датировано позавчера (позавчерам )", and same is true for "прошлым днем".

But, for fairness' sake, this usage is different from the one in question, where "прошлым днем" used in place of "вчера". They both are the same constructs, using instrumental case, but in fact they answer different question.

 

[dePrades]

Thanks for your help, but in the sentence "я приехала воскресенью, потому что он позвонил меня на прошлом день", would it be possible to write "я приехала воскресенью, потому что он позвонил меня прошлым днем"? Or "прошлым днем" only refers to "вчера"?

 

[morzh]

Thanks for your help, but in the sentence "я приехала воскресенью в воскресенье, потому что он позвонил меня мне на прошлом деньвчера", would it be possible to write "я приехала воскресенью, потому что он позвонил меня прошлым днем"? Or "прошлым днем" only refers to "вчера"?

I don't think you can use "прошлый день" in here.

But, I think, you can do this:

Я приехала, потому что в прошлое воскресенье он мне позвонил и позвал в гости.
Я приехала, потому что прошлым воскресеньем он мне позвонил и позвал в гости.

 

[dePrades]

but you can use "вчера" meaning "the day before"? How would you say in Russian "I couldn't come to your party because the day before I broke my leg"? я не смог приходить на вечеринку, потому что вчера/на прошлом день я сломал ногу?

 

[morzh]

but you can use "вчера" meaning "the day before"? How would you say in Russian "I couldn't come to your party because the day before I broke my leg"? я не смог приходить на вечеринку, потому что вчера/на прошлом день я сломал ногу?

You can say "вчера or "днём раньше" or "за день до того".

я не смог приходить прийти на вечеринку, потому что вчера/на прошлом день (днём ранее / за день до того) я сломал ногу.

Note:

Вчера is used in direct speech, when you explain your reasons to someone, not in retrospect.
"Я не пришел, потому что я вчера сломал ногу".
"Днем ранее / задень до того" is usually used when you tell it in retrospect. Like, you tell it to someone a month later. Or if you write a story (probably because it is usually in retrospect too).
"Я не пришел, потому что днем ранее я сломал ногу".

PS. Same is true in English. If today I speak to a person about what happen yesterday, I will say "...because yesterday I broke my leg".
In retrospect, I will tell "I could not come because the day before I broke my leg".

 

[dePrades]

Я приехала, потому что в прошлое воскресенье он мне позвонил и позвал в гости.
Я приехала, потому что прошлым воскресеньем он мне позвонил и позвал в гости.

Thanks for your help.. That's not was I was pretending to say (I wanted to say "I came on Sunday because the day before he phoned me" but I think I've been answered in your next post. It's quite "surprising" for me that you can use "вчера" meaning "the day before"... but with Russian, you never know

 

[morzh]

Actually now I have a question.

"На прошлой субботе / в прошлую субботу / прошлой субботой".

Can all three be used in the sentence:

На прошлой субботе (прошлой субботой, в прошлую субботу) у нас был концерт.

 

[Natalisha]

Actually now I have a question.

"На прошлой субботе / в прошлую субботу / прошлой субботой".

Can all three be used in the sentence:

На прошлой субботе (прошлой субботой, в прошлую субботу) у нас был концерт.

В прошлую субботу у нас был концерт.
На прошлой неделе в субботу у нас был концерт.

I've never heard 'на прошлой субботе/прошлой субботой' used this way.

 

[dePrades]

Вчера is used in direct speech, when you explain your reasons to someone, not in retrospect.
"Я не пришел, потому что я вчера сломал ногу".
"Днем ранее / задень до того" is usually used when you tell it in retrospect. Like, you tell it to someone a month later. Or if you write a story (probably because it is usually in retrospect too).
"Я не пришел, потому что днем ранее я сломал ногу".

PS. Same is true in English. If today I speak to a person about what happen yesterday, I will say "...because yesterday I broke my leg".
In retrospect, I will tell "I could not come because the day before I broke my leg".

Understood! Thanks again! My problem came because what I understood from my teacher is that "на прошлом день" could be translated as "yesterday" but as well as "the day before", and this latter seems not to be true... On the other hand, I think that my problem with prepositions will remain unsolved so I'll try your strategy with instrumental case...

PS: I'd like to help you, but your question is far beyond my Russian

 

[Natalisha]

My problem came because what I understood from my teacher is that "на прошлом прошлый день" could be translated as "yesterday" but as well as "the day before", and this latter seems not to be true...

Neither 'на прошлый день' nor 'в прошлый день' sound good.
Usually we say 'днем ранее' as Morzh said or if you mention some event you can say 'за день до этого (события)'.

 

[morzh]

Also you can say "предыдущим днем" (rare) where you say "днем ранее".

"Прошлый день" sounds wrong. "Предыдущий день" is OK, I think. But it is only used where you literally want to say that - "the day before". And I mean literally. And even this is rare.

Like, in:

Let's see the calendar. Next Sunday. OK, so it's a long weekend. So here we have this day, day before and day that follows. Good!

Посмотрим на календарь. Следующее воскресенье. Хорошо, это длинный уикенд. Так что, у нас есть этот день, предыдущий день и день следующий.

 

[morzh]

В прошлую субботу у нас был концерт.
На прошлой неделе в субботу у нас был концерт.

I've never heard 'на прошлой субботе/прошлой субботой' used this way.

Well, let me make it more of a general question:
Do all three types exist when it comes to it being a time adverbial mod. (Обстоятельство времени)? Concert notwithstanding?

 

[eni8ma]

Gosh, I honestly don't know websites like that, but I'm sure someone here will point you to something somewhere.

Someone gave me this link to a page which is an excellent intro to the vagaries of time periods in Russian.

http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/time.html

 

[Natalisha]

Well, let me make it more of a general question:
Do all three types exist when it comes to it being a time adverbial mod. (Обстоятельство времени)? Concert notwithstanding?

No, these word combinations sound very strange.

Прошлой осенью/зимой/весной, прошлым летом. Прошлым вторником.
На прошлых выходных. На прошлом вторнике.

 

[dePrades]

Someone gave me this link to a page which is an excellent intro to the vagaries of time periods in Russian.

http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/time.html

eni8ma... thanks a lot! that was exactly what I was looking for... It's really really helpful. But now, two questions arise again... - do Russians say "на кануне", don't they? And it's shorter than a week and should go with accusative... could we consider it an excepction...- and what about "на следующий день"?

 

[Maroseika]

Someone gave me this link to a page which is an excellent intro to the vagaries of time periods in Russian.

http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/time.html

Really, great link. However I noticed two wrong examples there:

"There are several ways of indicating approximate punctual time in Russian. The simplest is to simply reverse the number and the noun (в часов пять "around five o'clock")".

This is wrong recomendation. Reversing is really needed, but it is like that:

That work needs to be finished by about 5 o'clock.
Надо кончить эту работу в часов пять.
Надо кончить эту работу часов в пять.
Cf.: Надо кончить эту работу в пять часов (= at 5.00).
In other words we have to reverse the (number + prepostion) and the noun.

And in this case the error is stylistical:
That work needs to be finished by evening.
Надо кончить эту работу под вечер.
Надо кончить эту работу до вечера (к вечеру).
"Под вечер" is of quite another - bookish, romantic, I don't know... - style, such as in:
Под вечер разыгралась буря.

 

[Maroseika]

two questions arise again... - do Russians say "на кануне", don't they? And it's shorter than a week and should go with accusative... could we consider it an excepction...- and what about "на следующий день"?

Накануне (as a solid word) means yesterday or the day before (some event). Figuratively it means just on the eve of some event.
Канун - eve, so it is not a unit of duration and therefore cannot be shorther or longer than smth.

 

[eni8ma]

Really, great link. However I noticed two wrong examples there:

That work needs to be finished by evening.
Надо кончить эту работу под вечер.
Надо кончить эту работу до вечера (к вечеру).

In that document (from the link), he says "deadlines" (my word) are expressed as к + dative:
 - Надо кончить эту работу к пятнице.
- That work needs to be finished by Friday.

Маросейка's example included:
- Надо кончить эту работу к вечеру.
- That work needs to be finished by evening.

до + Genitive seems to express "until" or "before"
- мы там были до вечера
- We were there until the evening.

- Надо кончить эту работу до вечера.
- That work needs to be finished before this evening.

 

[eni8ma]

Russians say "на кануне", don't they? And it's shorter than a week and should go with accusative... could we consider it an exception?

It would seem (and I'm only going by examples I have found) that for events, на + accusative is used.
(To say which week, it is на + prepositional)

- на Рождество - at Christmas
- на Пасху - at Easter
- на кануне - on the eve of ...

Eve is generally used as part of an event name - Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, etc.

 

[morzh]

- на кануне - on the eve of ...

Eve is generally used as part of an event name - Christmas Eve, New Year's Eve, etc.

"накануне" - spelled together.

Also:

"On the eve" means "в канун". Not "накануне".

"Накануне" indeed had to do with "канун", but if "в канун" indeed means "on the eve" (В канун рождества - Christmas eve), "накануне" usually means simply "day before" or "shortly before".

Накануне нам привезли посылку - Day before we got a package.
Накануне Второй мировой войны советская разведка получала донесения с возможной датой начала боевых действий - shortly before WWII soviet intelligence had information about a possible date of the beginning of the war.

 

[eni8ma]

Russians say "на кануне", don't they? And it's shorter than a week and should go with accusative... could we consider it an excepction?

"на кануне" is incorrect, as морж points out (although it does yield 623,000 results on Google)
"в канун" (в + Acc) is the correct form: 12,600,000 results

"On the eve" means "в канун".
"on the eve" (В канун рождества - Christmas eve)

So my theory about events was reasonable:
на + Acc for the event
на Рождество - on/at/for Christmas
на Новый год - on/at/for New Year
на Пасху - on/at/for Easter

That does actually agree with the document on Time Expressions, where he says на + Acc is for duration. Since events like Christmas, Easter, etc. last for at least a whole day, or even a few days (Easter) perhaps that's why the duration form is used (?).

But for the eve of an event (which is shorter than a week)
в + Acc
в канун Рождества - on Christmas Eve

в Канун нового года - does not seem to be used, at least not in that exact form; the closest I found was "в течение Кануна нового года" - ? during New Year's Eve; the current New Year's Eve ?

 

[morzh]

в Канун нового года - does not seem to be used, at least not in that exact form; the closest I found was "в течение Кануна нового года" - ? during New Year's Eve; the current New Year's Eve ?

В канун Нового года - is OK.
В течение кануна Нового года - sounds awful.

 

[eni8ma]

В канун Нового года - is OK.
В течение кануна Нового года - sounds awful.

I must've mistyped something when I did that Google search before, 'cos now when I entered "В канун Нового года" is came up with 18,700,000 results.

I take it you agree with the others though.

на Рождество - at/for Christmas
на Новый год - on/for New Year
на Пасху - at/for Easter

в канун Рождества - on Christmas eve
в Канун нового года - on New Year's eve

 

[dePrades]

I'm learning quite an awful lot with your links and your comments... you're really being very helpful.

I'm just trying to put everything in my mind in order and I have quite a lot of chaos... Now, I was just wondering why do they sing "только раз в году" in this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTnGxA6As4I) if according to the website eni8ma gave to us it's раз + в + accusative?

 

[eni8ma]

I'm not sure.

I do know that в only takes Acc or Prep, or locative, for those nouns that require it. год uses locative so году is the Prep, or locative case.

For some reason they are using в + Prep, which is for periods greater than a week.
в + Acc seems to be the more common for "раз в", though.
The same results seem to happen for "раз в час/часа".

Perhaps Russians themselves aren't sure which case to use?

 

[Natalisha]

I'm not sure.

I do know that в only takes Acc or Prep, or locative, for those nouns that require it. год uses locative so году is the Prep, or locative case.

For some reason they are using в + Prep, which is for periods greater than a week.
в + Acc seems to be the more common for "раз в", though.
The same results seem to happen for "раз в час/часа".

Perhaps Russians themselves aren't sure which case to use?

What makes you think so?

В году 365 дней. (prep.)
В неделе 7 дней. (prep.)
В сутках 24 часа. (prep.)

We don't say "раз в часа", only "раз в час", "раз в два/три/часа", "раз в пять/шесть/семь/etc. часов".

 

[eni8ma]

dePrades asked this question.

Now, I was just wondering why do they sing "только раз в году" in this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTnGxA6As4I) if according to the website eni8ma gave to us it's раз + в + accusative?

When I did a search, both for "раз в году" and "раз в год", I found that although there are certainly more results for "раз в год", there were still a great many for "раз в году". So then I searched for "раз в часа" and "раз в час", and got a similar result - more for "раз в час", but still many for "раз в часа".

I do realise that just because it turns up on a website, that doesn't make it right. There are people who put the most awful English up on websites.

I was simply suggesting that just as there are people who do not seem to know how to use English properly, so also, there seem to many Russians who aren't sure what case to use. Was not, of course, referring to educated, well-spoken Russians.

Simply observing that we foreigners are not the only ones who struggle with cases, and that there was not enough information (for dePrades and me) to understand why the song uses locative instead of accusative.

 

[Mr_Darcy]

Now, I was just wondering why do the sing "только раз в году" in this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTnGxA6As4I) if according to the website eni8ma gave to us it's раз + в + accusative?

Both options are possible.
The other option can be found in the song "Один раз в год сады цветут".

The same variation is also possible with days and weeks, but a) the presposition will change, b) the Prep. option will sound very colloquial (often with a flavour of disapproval).

Препарат принимают пять раз в день, каждые два часа. OK
Он мне звонит пять раз на дню, каждые два часа! OK (disapproval)
BUT Препарат принимают пять раз на дню, каждые два часа. NO! (it's a NO because you cannot use this language in a formal document; on the other hand, you could say with a disapproving tone: "Он эти таблетки ест не переставая, по десять раз на дню")

У него семь пятниц на неделе (a proverb, means he changes his mind every now and then) OK
Он ко мне, бывало, по несколько (or нескольку) раз на неделе заходил. ОК (He would call on me several times a week.)
BUT: Управляющий комитет заседает два раза в неделю. ОК

 

[Mr_Darcy]

So then I searched for "раз в часа" and "раз в час", and got a similar result - more for "раз в час", but still many for "раз в часа".

I googled "раз в часа" and I see what the problem is. "Раз в часа" is literate Russian, but in phrases irrelevant to our case. What google finds are sentences like "с периодичностью примерно раз в часа два-три." Here the reverse word order (раз в часа два-три instead of раз в два-три часа) just emphasises the fact that it's a rough estimate. So, it's still the good old "раз в час" model.

 

[eni8ma]

Both options are possible.

The same variation is also possible with days and weeks, but a) the preposition will change, b) the Prep. option will sound very colloquial (often with a flavour of disapproval).

Mystery solved - thank you - another "ok, but old-fashioned/quaint/colloqial" situation

 

[eni8ma]

I googled "раз в часа" and I see what the problem is. "Раз в часа" is literate Russian, but in phrases irrelevant to our case. What google finds are sentences like "с периодичностью примерно раз в часа два-три." Here the reverse word order (раз в часа два-три instead of раз в два-три часа) just emphasises the fact that it's a rough estimate. So, it's still the good old "раз в час" model.

Got it! thanks for that

 

[eni8ma]

My observations to date ...

As per the web page at alphadictionary, there are three kinds of time periods:
event: when did it happen? - perfective verb
duration: for how long did it happen? - imperfective, progressive
frequency: how often did it happen? - imperfective, iterative

(for "did", read "did/does/will")

I have renamed "punctuality" to "event", because "punctuality" did not feel quite right to me. An event can last for a moment in time through to a whole year (or perhaps more).

Taking the cases separately:
Prepositional
в P - event - longer than a week e.g. в августе
на P - event - a certain week - this week; the week before Christmas

Not sure about these two following - they seem like an event, but do not fit the pattern of using в A for events less than a week.

на P plural – e.g. на днях - the other day
на этих P plural – e.g на этих днях - one of these days

Accusative - here's where it gets trickier:
в A and на A can be used for frequency, duration, and for events (with appropriate verbs).

в A - frequency: e.g. в день – per day; в неде́лю – per week
в A - event: less than a week e.g. в канун Рождества; a minute

на A - event: special Events e.g. на Рождество, etc.
на A - duration: subsequent to the main action e.g. Она поехала в деревню на месяц

I am wondering whether this sentence fits also with the idea of being subsequent to the main action. The main action is "needing the potatoes", subsequently, we are told, they are to last for a year.

На год нам нужно 3 мешка картошки (we need 3 sacks of potatoes for one year).

 

[dePrades]

My Russian teacher wrote this sentence in an e-mail and I'm confused again... "вы можете прийти в тот же день или на следующий день"... Why is it "на следующий день с 10.00 до 12.00"? Would it be possible (according to eni8ma's link it would) to say "в следующий день"? Is there any difference in meaning? Thanks in advance!

 

[Natalisha]

My Russian teacher wrote this sentence in an e-mail and I'm confused again... "вы можете прийти в тот же день или на следующий день"... Why is it "на следующий день с 10.00 до 12.00"? Would it be possible (according to eni8ma's link it would) to say "в следующий день"? Is there any difference in meaning? Thanks in advance!

No, you can't say 'в следующий день'.

 

[eni8ma]

Well, on Google, these were the searches and the results:
"в тот же день или на следующий" - 527,000
"в тот же день или в следующий" - 4 (this is not a typo )

"в тот же день или в" - 293,000
"в тот же день или в субботу" - 21 (one example)
"в тот же день или в течение" - 192,000

"в следующий день" - 64,300,000
"или в следующий день" - 29
"или в следующий" - 87,700,000

Curiouser and curiouser (this is a quote from Alice in Wonderland, so don't wonder at my English )

 

[morzh]

Well, on Google, these were the searches and the results:
"в тот же день или на следующий" - 527,000
"в тот же день или в следующий" - 4 (this is not a typo )

"в тот же день или в" - 293,000
"в тот же день или в субботу" - 21 (one example)
"в тот же день или в течение" - 192,000

"в следующий день" - 64,300,000
"или в следующий день" - 29
"или в следующий" - 87,700,000

Curiouser and curiouser (this is a quote from Alice in Wonderland, so don't wonder at my English )

Even if the language is not by Carroll, usually no one, who knows anything about English, wonders at all those...exercises. English, especially American, is so choke-full of'em that personally I stopped being amazed long time ago

 

[eni8ma]

Even if the language is not by Carroll, usually no one, who knows anything about English, wonders at all those...exercises. English, especially American, is so choke-full of'em that personally I stopped being amazed long time ago

True enough

Can anyone explain these uses of в and на?

 

[eni8ma]

There's another result I need to include, so regrouping, we now have:

"в тот же день или в" - 293,000 - eg "в субботу" - 21, "в течение" - 192,000
"в тот же день или в следующий" - 4 (this is not a typo )

"в тот же день или на" - 603,000
"в тот же день или на следующий" - 527,000
"в тот же день или на следующий день" - 242,000

"или на следующий день" - 129,000,000
"или в следующий день" - 29
"или в следующий" - 87,700,000

These are my conclusions thus far:
"или в следующий день" is just plain wrong for most contexts
"или на следующий день"

"или в следующий" but not after "в тот же день"
"в тот же день или в" but not with следующий (why? any other words not used here?)

 

[dePrades]

No, you can't say 'в следующий день'.

Why not? Which is the rule?

 

[Maroseika]

Curiouser and curiouser (this is a quote from Alice in Wonderland, so don't wonder at my English )

Все страньше и страньше (as translated into Russian).

And yes, your conclusion is right, в следующий день is wrong for 'the day after some day', but correct for 'the day of something':
Приходите на следующий день.
Приходите в следующий день приема посетителей.

Why not? Which is the rule?

The rule is very simple: в следующий день is wrong in most contexts.
Maybe due to influence of назавтра.

 

[Natalisha]

Why not? Which is the rule?

I don't even know whether such a rule exists or not.
We always say 'на следующий день', 'на следующей неделе' but 'в следующем году' and 'в следующий раз'.

 

[Maroseika]

Strange enough, it appears that в следующий день is not wrong but just outdated.

Besides, I think we can still use it in one more case - in the sense of 'during the next day':

В следующий день мы успели очень мало.

 

[eni8ma]

I don't even know whether such a rule exists or not.
We always say 'на следующий день', 'на следующей неделе' but 'в следующем году' and 'в следующий раз'.

The rule is very simple: в следующий день is wrong in most contexts.

"на следующий день" - 145,000,000
"в следующий день" - 64,400,000

It is "или в следующий день" that is not used.

dePrades, that web page we have been using is not so much "rules" as observations. This seems to be a situation where the "rules" don't apply. We'll just have to make a note of it, I think.

 

[eni8ma]

Strange enough, it appears that в следующий день is not wrong but just outdated.

Is that a Russian search engine? or what exactly. Whatever it is, it is over my head at the moment

 

[dePrades]

I don't even know whether such a rule exists or not.
We always say 'на следующий день', 'на следующей неделе' but 'в следующем году' and 'в следующий раз'.

And if instead of следующий we have последний do the same prepositions apply? I'm thinking about creating a society "Russian students anonymous"... prepositions, aspect, verbs of motion... I'm going bananas!