в/на and a period of time

eni8ma

Senior Member
English - Australia
And if instead of следующий we have последний do the same prepositions apply? I'm thinking about creating a society "Russian students anonymous"... prepositions, aspect, verbs of motion... I'm going bananas!
Did you read my post?
"на следующий день" - 145,000,000
"в следующий день" - 64,400,000

It is "или в следующий день" that is not used.

dePrades, that web page we have been using is not so much "rules" as observations. This seems to be a situation where the "rules" don't apply. We'll just have to make a note of it, I think. :)
 
  • Ben Jamin

    Senior Member
    Polish
    You can say "вчера or "днём раньше" or "за день до того".

    я не смог приходить прийти на вечеринку, потому что вчера/на прошлом день (днём ранее / за день до того) я сломал ногу.

    Note:

    Вчера is used in direct speech, when you explain your reasons to someone, not in retrospect.
    "Я не пришел, потому что я вчера сломал ногу".
    "Днем ранее / задень до того" is usually used when you tell it in retrospect. Like, you tell it to someone a month later. Or if you write a story (probably because it is usually in retrospect too).
    "Я не пришел, потому что днем ранее я сломал ногу".

    PS. Same is true in English. If today I speak to a person about what happen yesterday, I will say "...because yesterday I broke my leg".
    In retrospect, I will tell "I could not come because the day before I broke my leg".
    I always believed that Вчера in Russian means exactly the same as yesterday in English, that is 'the day before today', but not 'the day before I broke my leg last year'.
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    And if instead of следующий we have последний do the same prepositions apply? I'm thinking about creating a society "Russian students anonymous"... prepositions, aspect, verbs of motion... I'm going bananas!
    "или на последний день" - 2,590,000
    "или в последний день" - 31,500,000

    I only looked at a few, but последний seems to be following the pattern we've been told.

    Seems like следующий varies for some reason. English has its abberations that people just have to learn (eg. there's possibly a "rule" that says when to say "o" as "u", but could you explain it? eg front, onion, come, some, etc)
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Is that a Russian search engine? or what exactly. Whatever it is, it is over my head at the moment :)

    This is Russian analog of this resource.
    In our case it just testifies to the effect that в следующий день in the sense of на следующий день was used only before the beginning of the 20th century.
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    "или на последний день" - 2,590,000
    "или в последний день" - 31,500,000

    This proves nothing, because these two expressions are used differently, such e.g.:

    Назначить на последний день but сделать в последний день.
     

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    And if instead of следующий we have последний do the same prepositions apply? I'm thinking about creating a society "Russian students anonymous"... prepositions, aspect, verbs of motion... I'm going bananas!
    Me too when I try to find answers to your questions.:D
    These phrases with 'на/в' seem to be easier memorized than explained.
    "или на последний день" - 2,590,000
    "или в последний день" - 31,500,000
    With 'последний' both are possible depending on the context.

    Мы отложили много дел на последний / следующий день.

    В последний день весны они прощались со школой.


    But we don't say 'в следующий день'.
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    This proves nothing, because these two expressions are used differently, such e.g.:

    Назначить на последний день but сделать в последний день.
    I know they are different.

    The point is that although "на следующий день" and "в следующий день" are both used, "или в следующий день" is not used.

    dePrades asked if the same was so for последний, so my searches showed that both "или на последний день" and "или в последний день" are in common use, each in their own way.
     

    alex97687

    New Member
    russian-rossia
    no, these word combinations sound very strange. :(

    Прошлой осенью/зимой/весной, прошлым летом.:tick: Прошлым вторником. :cross:
    На прошлых выходных. :tick: На прошлом вторнике. :cross:

    Ссуда погашена прошлым вторником
    Запись о сдаче экзамена сделана прошлым вторником

    На прошлом вторнике - these word combinations sound very strange- НО
    На прошлом субботнике
    На прошлом утреннике
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    :confused:
    I couldn't find any. :( Could you give us a couple of examples, please?
    These are the results.

    e.g.
    Но уже к полуночи, поняв, что проблему в тот день решить не удастся, предложил им сыграть в следующий день - в четверг, если разрешат

    Ваш пропуск в следующий день

    Все данные будут в следующий день

    Чаще всего пост прерывается в течение 2,5 часов после восхода солнца в следующий день после поста.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    В следующий день may stress duration, i.e. "during the next day", as opposed to "on the next day", but it still looks awkward in most situations. For all intents and purposes of a language-learner it should be regarded as a mistake. However "ваш пропуск в следующий день" refers to direction and not to time/position, like in "в город"(direction) vs "в городе"(position). This usage is correct, of course.
     

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Ссуда погашена прошлым вторником
    Запись о сдаче экзамена сделана прошлым вторником

    На прошлом вторнике - these word combinations sound very strange- НО
    На прошлом субботнике
    На прошлом утреннике
    Your first two examples are OK maybe because of the phrase 'задним числом' which is very common. But still 'в прошлый вторник' sounds better.
     

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    These are the results.

    e.g.
    Но уже к полуночи, поняв, что проблему в тот день решить не удастся, предложил им сыграть в следующий день - в четверг, если разрешат

    Ваш пропуск в следующий день

    Все данные будут в следующий день

    Чаще всего пост прерывается в течение 2,5 часов после восхода солнца в следующий день после поста.
    I can't see anything else but
    Нет результатов для ""ГђВІ следующий день"".
    :( Do others see the same?

    I like only one of your examples which is 'Ваш пропуск в следующий день', maybe because it reminds me of 'пропуск в будущее', 'путевка в будущее'.
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    I don't even know whether such a rule exists or not.
    We always say 'на следующий день', 'на следующей неделе' but 'в следующем году' and 'в следующий раз'.

    I just keep asking the same question... to try to get more data to find out an explanation (if there's one!!!)... I know that learning it by heart is the option but I'm unable to learn all combinations prep + adj + noun... so I'll try to make a rule.. And my question is: do you say...?1a на последний день1b в последний день2a на последней неделе2b в последней неделе3a. в последнем году3b. на последнем году4a в последний раз. /4b на последний раз.Sorry for the formatting, but at the moment I'm using a very old computer that doesn't allow me to do anything else ;)
     

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I just keep asking the same question... to try to get more data to find out an explanation (if there's one!!!)...
    And if there's no explanation?
    I know that learning it by heart is the option but I'm unable to learn all combinations prep + adj + noun... so I'll try to make a rule..
    Maybe you'll be able to explain to my son why "ambassador TO the USA"? (I told him he had to memorize that.)
    And my question is: do you say...?
    1a на последний день :tick: (Мы отложили поездку на последний день лета. - отложить на)
    1b в последний день :tick: (Они подали заявление в последний день приема документов)
    2a на последней неделе
    2b в последней неделе
    3a. в последнем году
    3b. на последнем году
    4a в последний раз.
    4b на последний раз.
    Sorry for the formatting, but at the moment I'm using a very old computer that doesn't allow me to do anything else ;)
    I suppose all of them sound good depending on the meaning and the words which surround them.
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    Here's the link again - seems like the forum processor mangled it before :)

    dePrades - the "rules" we have so far are fine (but only an intro) - memorise those, plus this exception, that after или use "на следующий день".

    Otherwise, use:
    - в следующий день - for a "place" in time (usually with perfective aspect)
    - на следующий день - for duration (with imperfective - progressive)

    There are 64,500,000 examples of using "в следующий день" in various circumstances - they can't all be wrong.
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Maybe you'll be able to explain to my son why "ambassador TO the USA"? (I told him he had to memorize that.) .
    No help for your son, sorry :)Thanks for your help! I know I'll end trying to memorize it, and forgetting it, and memorizing again...
    I suppose all of them sound good depending on the meaning and the words which surround them.

    That's what gets me mad... but I'm better than yesterday (I'll take eni8ma advise) ;) So, don't worry. It's not only that I have to memorize a "chunk of words" but it's worse because this chunk of words sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. And I strongly believe that there should be some logic behind it... even when this logic it's not evident for native speakers... Just trying to find out something, if I find nothing (what's likely to happen) I'll use my memory!
     

    elemika

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Very long thread!
    Some more comment :eek:

    When (когда) does/did / will something take place?

    в этот день (сегодня)/ в предыдущий день (вчера) /завтра; в последующий день (на следующий день, назавтра);
    на этой неделе / на прошлой неделе / на следующей неделе; в последующую неделю;
    в этом месяце / в прошлом месяце /в следующем месяце; в последующем месяце;
    в этом году / в прошлом году/ в следующем году, в последующем году.

    It looks like the terms which mean the date (day, month, year) go with "в" while "неделя" - with "на".

    Последующий means "following something, subsequent" while «следующий» is the next (to “now”):

    “Следующий день “should behave like “последующий день” (as in the case of month, year) but it doesn’t:
    B первый день примите две таблетки, в последующий день - одну таблетку.
    В первый день примите две таблетки, а на следующий день примите только одну.

    The trick is that when we say «завтра» we mean «в следующий за сегодняшним день” and we usually don’t use “в следующий день” (next to today):
    Он приезжает завтра.
    Он приедет завтра.

    And we say «на следующий день» when the starting point other than “today” (= в последующий день, назавтра):
    Сегодня примите две таблетки, а завтра одну.
    В первый день примите две таблетки, а на следующий день (в последующий день, назавтра) – одну.

    Also in the past: we can’t say «он приехал завтра» but:
    Он приехал на следующий день/ Он приехал назавтра/ Он приехал в последующий день

    The same rule functions with Следующий год and Следующий месяц in the past:
    Он поступает в институт в следующем году / в следующем месяце
    But:
    Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год (и в последующем году) / и на следующий месяц (и в последующем месяце).
     
    Last edited:

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    Notice "на следующий" being a result of the search for "в следующий".
    Anywhere in the text "в" will appear, and it is good enough for Google to give you.

    Now, if you look for "в следующий день" with the quotes, it will be 25,000,000 results
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    Notice "на следующий" being a result of the search for "в следующий".
    Anywhere in the text "в" will appear, and it is good enough for Google to give you.
    Now, if you look for "в следующий день" with the quotes, it will be 25,000,000 results
    I don't know what search engine you are using, but google.com gives me over 64 million results - with the quotes - I do know how to use a search engine :) Yes, the first few are just dictionaries and forums; but not all 64 million.
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    I don't know what search engine you are using,


    Google, of course. There are no other good comparable SE around that I know of.

    This is the capture of my search.
     

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    • Google.jpg
      Google.jpg
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    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    I don't know what search engine you are using, but google.com gives me over 64 million results - with the quotes - I do know how to use a search engine :) Yes, the first few are just dictionaries and forums; but not all 64 million.

    First of all, not 64 mln, but only 25. Also too many? Let's not hurry.
    Some of these 25 mln are like that:
    - пропуск в следующий день
    - вера в следующий день
    - перескочить в следующий день
    Many others are from the very old texts (we already know it was really used beofre the 20th century).
    How many remain? I don't know actually, but just note this half million.
     

    eni8ma

    Senior Member
    English - Australia
    O ye of little faith - I do not lie, nor stretch the truth, and I do know how to search on Google :)

    russian.jpg

    Have you heard of the filter bubble? It is fairly recent that google now filters search results for each and every computer. This means that if you search from a computer in another building the results will be different (or so I have read). Certainly the results are different from country to country. Why does Russia and the US get so many fewer results? I don't work for Google, so I don't know. They do call Australia the Lucky Country :D
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    I do not understand the point you are making. Someone said that you "never" use в следующий день.

    No, no one said that.

    It is not used in the "during the next day" or similar meanings, but it is used otherwise.

    Пропуск в следующий день - The pass to the next day (permit o pass, that is) - should use "в" and cannot use "на".

    Or "Войди в следующий день" (Enter tomorrow).
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Very long thread!
    “Следующий день “should behave like “последующий день” (as in the case of month, year) but it doesn’t:
    B первый день примите две таблетки, в последующий день - одну таблетку.
    В первый день примите две таблетки, а на следующий день примите только одну.

    The trick is that when we say «завтра» we mean «в следующий за сегодняшним день” and we usually don’t use “в следующий день” (next to today):
    Он приезжает завтра.
    Он приедет завтра.

    And we say «на следующий день» when the starting point other than “today” (= в последующий день, назавтра):
    Сегодня примите две таблетки, а завтра одну.
    В первый день примите две таблетки, а на следующий день (в последующий день, назавтра) – одну.

    Also in the past: we can’t say «он приехал завтра» but:
    Он приехал на следующий день/ Он приехал назавтра/ Он приехал в последующий день

    The same rule functions with Следующий год and Следующий месяц in the past:
    Он поступает в институт в следующем году / в следующем месяце
    But:
    </p>
    Thanks elemika... I think your post has enlightened me! The "problem" is with следующий... I have to take into account that this adjective (when referring to a point in the time other than today) affects prepositions and collocates with на, preferably, even though there are some exceptions like the ones pointed by Maroseika:- пропуск в следующий день- вера в следующий день- перескочить в следующий деньJust another question... Why does it collocate with accusative in the sentence below?
    Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год (и в последующем году) / и на следующий месяц (и в последующем месяце).
    The verb doesn't ask for the accusative (Он поступает в институт в следующем году / в следующем месяце ) and we say: на этой неделе / на прошлой неделе / на следующей неделе; в последующую неделю... usually месяц and год go in the structure в + prepositive. So why is this sentence in accusative?
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    Well, yes, they did ...


    And so they are using в - It was Maroseika who provided the examples.


    :confused: I have no idea what point you are both making about this.


    I will repeat (for those inside the tank) :D

    It can be used in the sense OTHER THAN initially discussed in this topic.

    Those who said "It cannot be used at all" - probably got sucked in the discussion and forgot about the other meanings. Just pay attention to what we said recently.

    It CAN BE USED in expressions like "пропуск в завтра / в следующий день" (have to admit - "завтра" will be used in most cases, not "следующий день", but still.....)

    But it cannot be used in "на следующий день (назавтра) я пошел в школу" (that is for something that happens the next day).

    PS> BTW note that "Назавтра" is spelled together, not separate.
     

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Well, yes, they did ...
    No, you can't say 'в следующий день'.
    Eni8ma, do you remember dePrades' question?
    My Russian teacher wrote this sentence in an e-mail and I'm confused again... "вы можете прийти в тот же день или на следующий день"... Why is it "на следующий день с 10.00 до 12.00"? Would it be possible (according to eni8ma's link it would) to say "в следующий день"? Is there any difference in meaning? Thanks in advance!

    I can repeat myself if you wish. Answering the question Когда ... ? (When ... ?) you should say 'в следующий раз', 'в следующий вторник', 'в следующем месяце', 'в следующем году' but 'на следующий день'.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Otherwise, use:
    - в следующий день - for a "place" in time (usually with perfective aspect)
    - на следующий день - for duration (with imperfective - progressive)
    In the page on time expressions, it says that duration can be на+ accusative for certain conditions, such as when the verb is imperfective. поступать is imperfective, thus described progressive action, hence duration.

    He did not enter college during the following ....

    No, it's exactly the other way 'round. To stress the duration you use в+what seems to be former Locative (в следующем году/месяце), while referring to a point in time you use на+Accusative. Неделя is an exception, as was mentioned earlier.

    However, when in на+Accusative "на" is stressed, it refers to duration:
    уехал на день/год
    The stress moves to the noun if there's anything inbetween or if the noun has more than 1 syllable, but the meaning remains. In these cases you can't put в instead of на at all, so that's not a big problem:
    уехал в день/год is gibberish, "he left per day", or "he rode off into the day"
    When в and на are interchangeable, the first refers to duration an the second - to a point in time.

    About или в следующий день, it's doesn't have anything to do with или, it's just that in the sense where или can be used "в следующий день" can't.
    Он уехал в тот или на следующий день - he left that day or the next
    Он уехал в следующий день - he rode off into the next day
    You don't often have a choice of riding off into different days.

    edit:there's also "уехал в том году/в прошлом месяце/на той неделе" etc, they just use в or на and that's all
     
    Last edited:

    Natalisha

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I do not understand you at all.

    I simply posted some results to show that "в следующий день" is a commonly used phrase (since two people had said it was wrong to use it at all).
    No, dear eni8ma, nobody said that. :)
    Just why are you jumping on me? and I suppose that referring to me as being "in a tank" is an insult?
    It's a joke. Take it easy. :)
     

    morzh

    Banned
    USA
    Russian
    I was referring to dePrades question.

    Since the first response was
    dePrades responded with
    ... hence my clarification that в следующий день was fine in other contexts - but not after или.

    Then I (foolishly) posted some Google results to support that statement, and since then everybody and his dog has been telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. :mad:


    En8ma, my dear fellow,

    No one insults you here, everyone likes you here (though I can only speak for myself, but so far I do not sense any animosities towards you) but:

    Sometimes (meaning 90% of your posts) :D you are being just too detailed and you eventually complicate the living hell out of the simplest of questions. Have you noticed the trend yet? I think you have as you actually admitted that yourself in another thread.
    You sometimes have to let go.
    We here are going 2nd or 3rd circle answering the same thing and clarifying the murkiness you yourself are creating.

    And, yes, we are getting sucked into it sometimes, just I guess because of the momentum developed.

    Let's not complicate things, let alone accuse people of kicking you were they actually are trying to be helpful.
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    Then I (foolishly) posted some Google results to support that statement, and since then everybody and his dog has been telling me I have no idea what I am talking about. :mad:

    It's because such usage is VERY specific, is not used in everyday language and confuses the learner. I'm actually very suprised to see all these google results because all of them except for a few poetic usages in the sense of "into" and expressions like "в следующий день Молодёжи" (referring to a holiday) are MISTAKES! And a huge lot of mistakes that is!
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    No, it's exactly the other way 'round. To stress the duration you use в+what seems to be former Locative (в следующем году/месяце), while referring to a point in time you use на+Accusative. Неделя is an exception, as was mentioned earlier.

    However, when in на+Accusative &quot;на&quot; is stressed, it refers to duration:
    уехал на день/год
    </p>
    How would it be linked to the difference between "Он поступает в институт в следующем году" and "Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год"? I would say that the former is a point in time (one day next year) and the later refers to duration (not in the following year)? Any help about that? Thanks a lot again to all of you trying to help me to get something clear from it ;)
     

    Sobakus

    Senior Member
    </p>
    How would it be linked to the difference between "Он поступает в институт в следующем году" and "Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год"? I would say that the former is a point in time (one day next year) and the later refers to duration (not in the following year)? Any help about that? Thanks a lot again to all of you trying to help me to get something clear from it ;)

    Он поступает в институт в следующем году pretty much means that sometime in the course of the next year he's going to enter a university. The year is viewed as a time period.
    Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год = the next year he still didn't enter it. No prepositions in English here, it's like a single adverb of time with the meaning of a point in time, even if it's as long as a year.
     

    viesis

    Senior Member
    Russian
    </p>
    How would it be linked to the difference between "Он поступает в институт в следующем году" and "Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год"? I would say that the former is a point in time (one day next year) and the later refers to duration (not in the following year)? Any help about that? Thanks a lot again to all of you trying to help me to get something clear from it ;)
    The difference how I feel it:
    1. "Он поступает в институт в следующем году". Just statement not necessarily connected with anything that was said before. And here, yes, a point in time is meant (some time next year).
    2. "Он не поступил в институт и на следующий год". There is some story behind this phrase. It is from some narrative about some events in the past. "на следующий год" emphasizes that he tried again but failed. Also, "на следующий год" is preferable because the action is in the past. "Он не поступил в институт и в следующем году" is also possible, but I think it may give way to some confusion. 'Cause when I hear "в следующем году", I automatically think "next year from now" like in the direct speech. So IMHO "Он не поступил в институт и в следующем году" is an example of loose, inconsistent speech, which nevertheless can be heard quite often.
     
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    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Understood... but why на следующий год (на + acc.)? and not на следующем году (на + prep.)? Can I say that "на + period of time" always take accusative except with неделя (на неделе)?
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Understood... but why на следующий год (на + acc.)? and not на следующем году (на + prep.)? Can I say that "на + period of time" always take accusative except with неделя (на неделе)?
    Specialists in the historical grammatics would be able to answer you. Maybe. But I don't think it is possible to explain this only basing on the logic of the language how we can understand it now.

    На следующем году is possible only like this:
    На следующем году жизни ребенок начинает лепетать, затем говорить отдельные слова.
     

    viesis

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Understood... but why на следующий год (на + acc.)? and not на следующем году (на + prep.)?
    Well, "на следующем году" is possible, but not in this context. Why this or that is possible or not possible is a topic for linguistic research or a dissertation. One has to read a bunch of books on linguistics in order to answer this question.
    Can I say that "на + period of time" always take accusative except with неделя (на неделе)?
    No, you can't. Because it's not only "неделя" that prep. can be used with. "на секунде", "на минуте", "на месяце", "на году", "на десятилетии", "на веку" are also possible.
     
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    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    eni8ma re-read! And I'll let this topic have a rest... I think that I got some ideas that I have to put in order and try to go on with them... until &quot;the rules&quot; crash again with a sentence I read somewhere... but all of you have been very helpful. My aim is not write a dissertation but to try to understand Russian language in order to produce &quot;correct sentences&quot;... if I never get to understand it, I'll be able to write not a dissertation, but a whole book!! ;) of course all of you will be in the acknowledgements chapter:)
     
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