никого may be a subject?

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dePrades

Senior Member
Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
Hello, could anyone help me to find out if these sentences are good as answers to these questions? If more than one is right, is there any difference in meaning between the possible answers? Thanks a lot.
Кто знает что-нибудь о России?1a) никто не знает1b) никого не знает1c) никто не знает ничего1d) никого не знает ничего
Кто говорит по русский? 2a) никто не говорит2b) никого не говорит
 
  • Orlin

    Banned
    български
    Hello, could anyone help me to find out if these sentences are good as answers to these questions? If more than one is right, is there any difference in meaning between the possible answers? Thanks a lot.
    Кто знает что-нибудь о России?1a) никто не знает:tick:1b) никого не знает:cross:1c) никто не знает ничего:tick: (unusual word order though - никто ничего не знает is better) 1d) никого не знает ничего:cross:
    Кто говорит по-русский? 2a) никто не говорит:tick:2b) никого не говорит:cross:
    Only никто can be a subject because it's in the nominative case, никого is genitive or accusative.
     
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    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Thanks Orlin, I know about it... but with copulative verbs (to be) the subject can be found in genitive (Олега не было дома) and I was wondering if it was also possible with any other verbs...
     

    Orlin

    Banned
    български
    Thanks Orlin, I know about it... but with copulative verbs (to be) the subject can be found in genitive (Олега не было дома) and I was wondering if it was also possible with any other verbs...
    These constructions are impersonal and such sentences have no subject. Only words and phrases in the nominative can be subjects in Russian.
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Thanks for your answers (and for the link)... My doubts arose from the comparison among some sentences...
    1) я люблю Марыну
    2) я не люблю Марыны

    When using a negative verb, the direct object is not more in accusative but in genitive... And the same happens with the subject (even though you say that in 4 the genitive doesn't work as a subject - I don't know so far-) in 3 & 4...
    3) Олег был дома
    4) Олега не было дома

    So I was wondering if it this &quot;genitivisation&quot; may happen with some subjects that go with transitive or intransitive verbs. And well, your answer was very helpful!
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    Thanks for your answers (and for the link)... My doubts arose from the comparison among some sentences...
    1) я люблю Марину
    2) я не люблю Марины
    Please note you cannot say (2), only Я не люблю Марину. The reason is that Genitive works here is Partitive, but one cannot love only a part of Marina. If you love her take her all.
    Cf.:
    Дайте мне колбасу (the whole one).
    Дайте мне колбасы (a slice or few).
    However even with animated nouns in many cases you can use Genitive (Я не видел никакой собаки, Марины, etc.).

    When using a negative verb, the direct object is not more in accusative but in genitive... And the same happens with the subject (even though you say that in 4 the genitive doesn't work as a subject - I don't know so far-) in 3 & 4...
    3) Олег был дома
    4) Олега не было дома
    You are right, in (4) it doesn't work as a subject, there is just no subject, that's why it's called "impersonal sentence" - безличное предложение.

    So I was wondering if it this &quot;genitivisation&quot; may happen with some subjects that go with transitive or intransitive verbs. And well, your answer was very helpful!
    No, this cannot happen to subject. Subject expressed with a name is always in the Nominative case.
     
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    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Thanks Maroseika... I think I quite understand the subject use with nominative and the impersonal sentences (even though they are a bit strange for me since nor in English nor in Spanish they aren't impersonal)... But well, I'm completely lost with the partitive use of the genitive form with negative/transitive verbs... You have to love Marina completely but you can only see some parts of her? It doesn't make sense to me, well... you can see parts of her, but "logically thinking" you could, as well, love only some aspects of her... any useful link?
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    But well, I'm completely lost with the partitive use of the genitive form with negative/transitive verbs... You have to love Marina completely but you can only see some parts of her? It doesn't make sense to me, well... you can see parts of her, but "logically thinking" you could, as well, love only some aspects of her...
    Partitive in Russian is just a nuance, even not all the natives feel it, but sometimes this nuance neglection results in quite unnatural phrases.
    I can only guess why Я не видел Марины is correct, and Я не люблю Марины is wrong. Maybe really you can see a part of Marina, but cannot love a part of her. You can love one of her aspects but this doesn't mean you love only her part.
    In fact, there is a difference in
    Я не видел Марины.
    and
    Я не видел Марину.
    Both are possible but the latter looks more official, while the former - more colloquial. Or we can even interprete the latter as "more strong" affirmation than the former.

    At least with unanimated nouns this difference is much more evident.
    Дай мне денег (немного, часть и т.п.).
    Дай мне деньги (эти, все и т.п.)
    any useful link?
    Sorry, don't know, but try to look for Второй родительный in the web.
    Start here: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Второй_родительный
     

    dePrades

    Senior Member
    Catalan and Spanish - Catalonia
    Thanks very much, your explanations are always quite clarifying... even though Russian is quite a "dark" language for me ;-)
     
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