с визитом

Konstantinos

Senior Member
Greek - Athens
В. Путин: Коллеги на различных уровнях – и на уровне предприятий, и на уровне министерств, ведомств – находятся в постоянном друг с другом контакте. Да, сменилось Правительство в Белоруссии, но это не мешает нам активно работать, тем более что совсем недавно с визитом в Белоруссии был Председатель Правительства Российской Федерации Михаил Владимирович Мишустин. Знаю, что он провёл очень серьёзные, большие переговоры, и они были успешными по всем направлениям нашего взаимодействия – кстати говоря, в том числе и в финансовой сфере. Мы договорились о том, что Россия предоставит Белоруссии в этот сложный момент государственный кредит – 1,5 миллиарда долларов, и мы это исполним. Сейчас, насколько мне известно, наши министры финансов ведут на этот счёт работу на профессиональном уровне.

This is from a Vladimir Putin - Alexander Lukashenko speech (14 сентября 2020 года), kremlin.ru

I don't understand why in that point:

...тем более что совсем недавно с визитом в Белоруссии был...

it is с визитом but not с визита. Actually in wiktionary it is said, that с should be followed by instrumental only when it means "with" and in case that it is about time (since, from) genitive should be preferred.

Please help me clarify this aspect.
 
  • Awwal12

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Быть (пребывать, находиться, ...) с визитом где-л. (formal, most typically in political contexts) = literally "to be somewhere with a visit", i.e. to be visiting sth.
    Cf. also посетить с визитом что-л., прийти с визитом etc.
     

    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    I need a little more help to make all the sentence make sense.

    Да(Yes), сменилось (changed) Правительство(the Government) в Белоруссии (in Belarus), но (but) это не (this not) мешает (prevents) нам (us) активно (to actively) работать (work), тем более что (all the more so) совсем недавно (most recently) с визитом (with a visit) в Белоруссии (in Belarus) был (was) Председатель (the Chairman) Правительства (of the Government) Российской Федерации (of the Russian Federation) Михаил Владимирович Мишустин (name).

    The part after "тем более что" does not make much sense. I think that был is a very weak verb and a stronger one is needed somewhere. Please help me.
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    I need a little more help to make all the sentence make sense.

    Да(Yes), сменилось (changed) Правительство(the Government) в Белоруссии (in Belarus), но (but) это не (this not) мешает (prevents) нам (us) активно (to actively) работать (work), тем более что (all the more so) совсем недавно (most recently) с визитом (with a visit) в Белоруссии (in Belarus) был (was) Председатель (the Chairman) Правительства (of the Government) Российской Федерации (of the Russian Federation) Михаил Владимирович Мишустин (name).

    The part after "тем более что" does not make much sense. I think that был is a very weak verb and a stronger one is needed somewhere. Please help me.
    тем более что here can be expanded "all the more so because of the fact that".
    тем более (из-за того,) что.
     

    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    So:

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently with a visit in Belarus was the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    Again, at least to me, it does not make much sense.

    The following, without "with a visit" makes sense.

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently in Belarus was the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    Or replacing the "was" in the last sentence, with "visited".

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин visited Belarus.

    Or something different:

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently happened the visit in Belarus of the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    The last 3 ones make sense, but not the first one.
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    So:

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently with a visit in Belarus was the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    Again, at least to me, it does not make much sense.

    The following, without "with a visit" makes sense.

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently in Belarus was the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    Or replacing the "was" in the last sentence, with "visited".

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин visited Belarus.

    Or something different:

    All the more so because of the fact that most recently happened the visit in Belarus of the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Михаил Владимирович Мишустин.

    The last 3 ones make sense, but not the first one.
    совсем недавно: not that long ago
    chairman of the government = prime minister
    All the more so because of that fact that the Russian PM Mishustin not so long ago paid a visit to Belarus. Or: all the more so as Mishustin etc.

    был в Беларуси с визитом: was in Belarus on a visit.
    Also note that был somewhere corresponds to English to go somewhere. But the verbs be and go are actual confused in English to some extent: ты был в Москве? have you been to Moscow, where "have been to" is functionally the present perfect of "to go to". (Have you gone to? has a slightly different meaning - there are numerous threads on this in the English Only forum, e.g present perfect; have been to vs have gone to). Был в Беларуси с визитом, went to Belarus on a visit (and has already come back).
     
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    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    тем более что here can be expanded "all the more so because of the fact that".
    I'm curious about that the preceding clause is negative ("it does not prevent us from working"): does it not invoke any potential conflicts with the sense of "the more", or that "so" fully eliminates that?
     

    pimlicodude

    Senior Member
    British English
    I'm curious about that the preceding clause is negative ("it does not prevent us from working"): does it not invoke any potential conflicts with the sense of "the more", or that "so" fully eliminates that?
    I think "all the more so" is fine in English after a negative clause, but maybe you could see it as elliptical for "this is all the more so" "this is all the more the case", where "this" stands for the general situation?
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    but maybe you could see it as elliptical for "this is all the more so" "this is all the more the case", where "this" stands for the general situation?
    No, just wanted to be sure there's no side effects. On one hand, "the more" is merely bound to the truth of the whole predicate before it, so it works, and in Russian as well; but who knows - sometimes particular elements can create problems...
     

    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    совсем недавно: not that long ago
    chairman of the government = prime minister
    All the more so because of that fact that the Russian PM Mishustin not so long ago paid a visit to Belarus. Or: all the more so as Mishustin etc.

    был в Беларуси с визитом: was in Belarus on a visit.
    Also note that был somewhere corresponds to English to go somewhere. But the verbs be and go are actual confused in English to some extent: ты был в Москве? have you been to Moscow, where "have been to" is functionally the present perfect of "to go to". (Have you gone to? has a slightly different meaning - there are numerous threads on this in the English Only forum, e.g present perfect; have been to vs have gone to). Был в Беларуси с визитом, went to Belarus on a visit (and has already come back).

    You translate the "с" as "on". How to synchronize it with the dictionaries? In Multitran there is the meaning of "с" as "in" or "at". Something like that?

    At least for me, "я был в гостях" or "я был в визите" make more sense than "я был с визитом". Or not?
     

    Maroseika

    Moderator
    Russian
    At least for me, "я был в гостях" or "я был в визите" make more sense than "я был с визитом". Or not?
    Not. And the reason, I think, is in the specific sense of визит. Here is one of the early examples of this expression in Russian:

    Михайлов звал меня к себе уже не с визитом к его родителям, а для того, чтобы вместе с ним заняться приготовлением к экзамену и объяснением ему некоторых темных мест. [А. В. Никитенко. Дневник (1826)]

    As we can see, one could come to see somebody с визитом or without ceremony. So визит is not "a place" like гости, but a variety of calling somebody on. That's why one cannot be в визите.

    And one more (cf. с визитом and с поручением):
    "Он не просто с визитом, а появился он с каким-то поручением", ― думал мастер. Наблюдательность его ему не изменила. Выпив третью стопку коньяку, который на Азазелло не производил никакого действия, визитёр заговорил так: ― А уютный подвальчик, чёрт меня возьми! [М. А. Булгаков. Мастер и Маргарита, часть 2 (1929-1940)]
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    At least for me, "я был в гостях" or "я был в визите" make more sense than "я был с визитом". Or not?
    "С визитом" is a specific collocation; Awwal wrote about its usage in #2.
    There are a lot of stable phrases and patterns in both Russian and English that use their own prepositions; these prepositions may differ, and the only option is to memorize these phrases.

    "В гостях" is a set phrase. Just memorize. Yes, it uses a specific pattern: "в" + plural of some personality, but, this pattern is used for various meanings - e.g. остаться в дураках - lit. "to remain in fools", which means to be fooled finally - and, there's no simple way to systematize all phrases of this kind under a single principle.

    "Визит" is itself a specific and rather a formal term, and "с визитом" is a formal pattern that uses the sense of "with" - like something additional that you bring with you when arriving. It can accompany some other nouns when used for someone's arrival - "прийти c поздравлениями/вопросом/поручением"; in general these are formal or bookish. Just accept it as is.

    Why do they use "to go on a visit" in English? Pimlico knows better. But anyway, prepositions do not coincide: (go) on a journey = в поездку, on a safari = на сафари, because we use "на" for hunting, fishing and as well concerts, meetings, parties... For journeys and trips we use "в" - probably because it is a directed activity. So even here you see no correlation.
     
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    Konstantinos

    Senior Member
    Greek - Athens
    Thank you all for your answers.

    I mean, I still don't understand what I am missing here. Is there a specific meaning of "с"? Maybe I should search on dictionaries all the phrase "с визитом"? Maybe some advanced grammar rules on a grammar book? Or it belongs to the Russian aspects not having been studied and analyzed so much?
     

    nizzebro

    Senior Member
    Russian
    I mean, I still don't understand what I am missing here. Is there a specific meaning of "с"? Maybe I should search on dictionaries all the phrase "с визитом"?
    There are a lot of sub-meanings. The main idea of "с" + instr is "with".

    In cases like this, I'd recommend to use Google translate, or Yandex, or Context Reverso (it also has a translation module now). I just did that a moment ago for your sentence with Google, and it translated it as:

    Yes, the Government in Belarus has changed, but this does not prevent us from working actively, especially since the Chairman of the Government of the Russian Federation Mikhail Vladimirovich Mishustin was on a visit to Belarus quite recently.

    Of course, the word order has been changed and so on, but still it is possible to find the phrase you need. After that, apply some analysis, like this: they use "with visit"... So they mean 'visit' comes along with that man? So weird... Or, wait... "he was", so maybe it is the very his state of being there, was accompanied with 'visit'? Yes, looks like that...
     
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    Vovan

    Senior Member
    Russian
    A few more collocations like "прибыть/приехать с визитом":
    прибыть/приехать с проверкой, с дипломатической миссией (зд.: поручением), с заданием, с докладом, с инструкциями
    Those phrases are rather formal; they are mainly used to speak about officials or (more rarely) various kinds of representatives who are performing a certain "task" (such as: to read a report for a large audience, to introduce new instructions to the employees, to meet a newly appointed foreign official, etc.).

    In dictionaries, it is the following - rather general (!) - meaning of the preposition "с":

    9. чем. Употр. при обозначении цели действия. Пришёл с просьбой. Явиться с докладом.
    https://classes.ru/all-russian/russian-dictionary-Ozhegov-term-30669.htm

    In reality, there are:
    1. uses that are rather unremarkable/trivial in daily communications ("прийти с обвинениями/требованиями/извинениями/поздравлениями/соболезнованиями/предложением/просьбой...");
    2. rather more formal uses, often introduced by the verb "прибыть" ("прибыть с визитом/проверкой/поручением...)".
     
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