בלי / ללא

  • scriptum

    Senior Member
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    ללא seems to belong to a higher register; it is mostly found in idiomatic expressions, such as
    ללא רבב
    ללא פגע
    ללא רוח חיים
    etc.

    I cannot remember any other word with the same meaning.
     

    Akis

    Senior Member
    Russian
    ללא is not used to mean 'without smth' on its own. Scriptum is right to say that it is used in certain expressions, I do not see it possible to incorporate it
    universally. Others like it would be: חסר-


    "מבלי" used the same way as "בלי"
     
    Last edited:

    scriptum

    Senior Member
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    Others like it would be:
    ' חסר' as in " חסר כל ספק" - with no doubt/without a shade of doubt
    Hi Akis, and welcome to the forum.
    חסר means “lacking”.
    There seems to be no such expression as “חסר כל ספק”. You probably mistook for it the expression “למען הסר כל ספק” (“in order to remove any doubt”). הסר here is what is called “the absolute infinitive” form of the verb להסיר “to remove”.
     

    Akis

    Senior Member
    Russian
    Hi Akis, and welcome to the forum.
    חסר means “lacking”.
    There seems to be no such expression as “חסר כל ספק”. You probably mistook for it the expression “למען הסר כל ספק” (“in order to remove any doubt”). הסר here is what is called “the absolute infinitive” form of the verb להסיר “to remove”.

    Oh, than I must have:eek: apologies.
    At any rate I believe חסר is also synonym, like when you say "חסר טעם"
    (which I do hope is not another trick of my imagination)
     

    scriptum

    Senior Member
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    I believe חסר is also synonym, like when you say "חסר טעם"
    I think you are right - only it must be said that חסר is more restricted syntactically.
    חסר בושה: shameless
    ללא בושה may function both as shameless and shamelessly.
     

    amikama

    a mi modo
    עברית
    Another difference that came to my mind is that only בלי can be followed by an infinite:
    הוא יצא מכאן בלי להגיד שלום :tick:
    הוא יצא מכאן ללא להגיד שלום :cross:
     

    Clara_

    Senior Member
    French - France
    "מבלי" used the same way as "בלי"

    Hi, is there really no difference between מבלי and בלי?
    I think that I came more often across בלי than מבלי, would the first word be more colloquial then?
    Thank you.
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Hi, is there really no difference between מבלי and בלי?
    I think that I came more often across בלי than מבלי, would the first word be more colloquial then?
    Thank you.
    בלי appears 25 times in the Bible, מבלי appears 19 times. Therefore historically speaking I don't think that any of them can be regarded as colloquial. It is true that in modern language בלי is used often and מבלי seldom.
     

    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    yes it is origoumi.
    im trying to think of a real diffrence and its only syntax. its just like you can say gladdena nd not enhappy...
    bli is more of without and lelo is more of with not
    lelo revav - with not [one single] spot [of dirt]
    bli revav - without [one] spot
    bli lehagid - without saying
    lelo lehagid - with not saying[even in english it sounds wrong].

    perhaps thats more correct
    ps1: minli = bli only higher plain of speaking
    ps2 - khasar is lack,though sometimes it can act as bli and lelo (see above for examples)
     

    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    i dont think youre right scriptum

    you can say mibli + verb
    but the verb must be in a certain binyan... mibli haf'el oto
    mibli achaltiv.
    i think the mi of mibli is actually a short form of im bli - with-out
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    There is choice between בלי and מבלי only before an infinitive.
    היאכל תפל מבלי מלח?

    In the Bible - some cases of מבלי in are before a verb form that technically speaking is not infinitive but in modern Hebrew would usually be replaced by an infinitive. Other cases has nothing to do with infinitive. Regarding מבלי in Modern Hebrew - I think that we follow the Biblical language, so there are various use cases.
     

    scriptum

    Senior Member
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    היאכל תפל מבלי מלח?
    I meant: in the modern language, of course.
    I may be mistaken, but I don't remember having ever heard anybody say mibli NOT before an infinitive.
    Unless for purposes of biblical stylization.
     

    arbelyoni

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    And are there other ways to say "without"?

    There's לית, which is Aramaic for "there's no". It is prevalent in fixed phrases and expressions:
    בלית ברירה
    לית דין ולית דיין
     

    arielipi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    +1 ארבל!
    יש גם בלתי:
    bilti, sometimes bil(e)ti
    בלתי עמו
    without him
    usually used as rhetorical question that is meant to support the speaker.
    also biblical but it is still heard.
    יש גם את הנפוצים
    בלעדי,מלבד,אף,חוץ מ
     
    Top