התרעה vs. התראה

chaya

Senior Member
english (UK) French Spanish Italian
Can anyone tell me the answer to the following:
Normally when a root ends in ayin the noun also ends in ayin. BUT the word le-hatriya ends in ayin but the noun ends in aleph hay. Are there any other verbs that behave in this way? I cannot find the answer in my grammar books.

CHAYA
 
  • Evyatar

    New Member
    Hebrew
    Not exactly. You mean להתריע, am I right? If so, it has two suffixes. This noun can be ended both in aleph hay and in ayin hay. however, the meanings of each word are a little bit different. התראה Is usually a warning that someone won't transgress the rules. When you say התרעה you mean to a notification about a problem or another foreseen warning and you want to draw their attention by this.
    Hope you realized.
     

    arbelyoni

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Can anyone tell me the answer to the following:

    Normally when a root ends in ayin the noun also ends in ayin. BUT the word le-hatriya ends in ayin but the noun ends in aleph hay. Are there any other verbs that behave in this way? I cannot find the answer in my grammar books.

    CHAYA

    The word התראה comes from the word התרה (root: ת.ר.י), while התרעה comes from התריע (root: ת.ר.ע). Different roots, that's all.
     

    chaya

    Senior Member
    english (UK) French Spanish Italian
    thank you evy atar​



    Can you give me examples (sentences?)

    Are there any other shorashim that change like this? CHAYA​
     

    Evyatar

    New Member
    Hebrew
    First, an example: הוא התריע בפניהם שמלחה עומדת לפרוץ.
    He warned (cautioned) in front of them that a war is about to ocuur. Here, that man explains that there is a problem, there is a war soon, he wants them to be ready and aware to it.

    הוא התריע את האנשים שמי שידבר עכשיו ייצא מהאולם.

    He warned those people that a person who speaks now would get out of the theater.
    Here, you better use the noun with aleph. It isn't exactly a crime but you should use here the noun התראה, because it is a situation of a condition. Nevertheless, when people want to express a warning like this they usually use another verb: להזהיר. (or לאזהיר.)

    Right now I don't have another examples of this kind, but if I have an example, I'll write here.
     
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    ahshav

    Senior Member
    English, Hebrew
    הוא התריע את האנשים שמי שידבר עכשיו ייצא מהאולם.

    I'm pretty sure that's not right. If you want to say that you would have to say "הוא התריע בפני...". Another preposition that can be used is "על," e.g., "הוא התריע על הבעיות"

    The root of התראה is תר"ה, not a יו"ד for the final letter. Also, the נסתר, sing. form (He did it) of the root תר"ה is התרה, very different from תר"ע, which is התריע.
     

    Evyatar

    New Member
    Hebrew
    I'm not shut about it but maybe you're right, even I still think there is a possibility to say such a sentence.
     

    dinji

    Senior Member
    Swedish - Finland
    Arbelyoni is right in every respect. Two different roots, the resemblance in meaning and form is confusing but is a mere coincidence.

    The word התרה (hitra) really has the root: ת.ר.י (with a yod as third radical), while התריע (hitria) comes from the root: ת.ר.ע).

    All verbs with lots of mute letters hei ה at the end, such as paná(h) 'turn' or 'asá(h) 'do' really has a yod as their third radical. The true radical becomes visible in first and second person past tense paníti, asíta, asínu, pnitém, and also in hif'il: hifnéiti, he'eséita, he'esínu, hifneitém etc. With these roots any hei at the end was mute even in classical times.

    Roots with a true hei as their third radical are rare and carry the shape of gavahti 'I was tall' and higbiah 'he made tall'.
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    The word התרה (hitra) really has the root: ת.ר.י (with a yod as third radical)

    The way this issue is being explained in Israeli schools - the גזרה is נל"ה/נל"י - that is, both תרה and תרי are correct.

    Roots with a true hei as their third radical are rare and carry the shape of gavahti 'I was tall' and higbiah 'he made tall'.

    Other are נגה, כמה, תמה, מהמה. This is the complete list (again, according to Hebrew lessons in Israel).
     

    chaya

    Senior Member
    english (UK) French Spanish Italian
    Thank you all for your help. You may be interested to know that this word caught my attention as I wondered if it was correct or a typo. It is from the speech given by Ehud Olmert on December 27 2008 . (It is still on line on his official web site). He said..."b-maarechut hit-ra-a" (heh, tav, resh, ayin, heh).....

    Would this be translated as alarm or warning...?
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    התרעה is an alarm or warning against potential threat. For example - radar system that alerts when hostile army is approaching is מערכת התרעה.

    התראה is also a warning, but of another kind. It's a notice in advance that an action is about to be taken. For example - a letter sent by the bank discussing confiscation of some property when one fails to pay the mortgage fees on time is מכתב התראה.
     

    chaya

    Senior Member
    english (UK) French Spanish Italian
    Ayin or Aleph? Thank you Origumi.
     
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    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    Let me retry:

    התרעה (`ayin) is an alarm or warning against potential threat. For example - radar system that alerts when hostile army is approaching is מערכת התרעה.

    התראה (aleph) is also a warning, but of another kind. It's a notice in advance that an action is about to be taken. For example - a letter sent by the bank discussing confiscation of some property when one fails to pay the mortgage fees on time is מכתב התראה.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Arbelyoni is right in every respect. Two different roots, the resemblance in meaning and form is confusing but is a mere coincidence.

    The word התרה (hitra) really has the root: ת.ר.י (with a yod as third radical), while התריע (hitria) comes from the root: ת.ר.ע).

    All verbs with lots of mute letters hei ה at the end, such as paná(h) 'turn' or 'asá(h) 'do' really has a yod as their third radical. The true radical becomes visible in first and second person past tense paníti, asíta, asínu, pnitém, and also in hif'il: hifnéiti, he'eséita, he'esínu, hifneitém etc. With these roots any hei at the end was mute even in classical times.

    Roots with a true hei as their third radical are rare and carry the shape of gavahti 'I was tall' and higbiah 'he made tall'.
    If the root letters of התראה are ת ר י, where did the א come from? Is this a verbal noun from the hif'il binyan, like הזמנה is from להזמין 'to determine'?
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    In Mishnaic Hebrew, there were some interchanges between י and א.

    Word-final א after a historically long vowel often became י, for example, מבוא > מבוי and נשוא > נשוי (but derived forms remained מבואות and נשואה). And a non-doubled י preceded by an a-vowel and followed by a full vowel often became א, for example, התריה > התראה or הודיה > הודאה, and חציים > חצאים (with some additional paradigm shifts as well, you get מקואות and קנוהו > קנאוהו).
     
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