מקור מוחלט (infinitive absolute)

talmid

Senior Member
UK English
Moderator note:
Thread split from here.



140809 0242

Hi!

In Origumi's reply, the reference given was:

אָכוֹל וְשָׁתוֹ כִּי מָחָר נָמוּת


I believe that אָכוֹל is the singular form




My question is:

is " וְשָׁתוֹ " the masculine singular form or is it the plural form ?


I'd be grateful if someone could clarify for me please

Thanks
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    This is "infinitive absolute" = מקור מוחלט. Compare to Exodus 32:6 וַיֵּשֶׁב הָעָם לֶאֱכֹל וְשָׁתוֹ, literally "and the people sat down for eating and drinking". Infinitive absolute is typical to Semitic languages. While common in biblical language rarely used in modern Hebrew.

    More here (in Hebrew): http://www.safa-ivrit.org/dikduk/makor.php
     

    talmid

    Senior Member
    UK English
    150809 0200


    Many thanks for these explanations


    I note that the infinitive absolute is " rarely" used in modern Hebrew " ~ which suggests that it is sometimes used

    I would much appreciate it, if you could,if possible, give me a couple of examples of how this form might be used in everyday expressions in modern Ivrit, please.

    Thank you
     

    origumi

    Senior Member
    Hebrew
    "Once there was ..." (in children stories) is הָיֹה הָיָה.

    The red-blue locomotive in Disney's Dumbo, when climbing the mountain carrying a whole circus, says: יָכוֹל אוּכַל, יָכוֹל אוּכַל, יָכוֹל אוּכַל. Compare to Numbers 13:30.

    You may hear מות יומת, בוא אבוא and similar expressions intended to emphasize the action.
     

    talmid

    Senior Member
    UK English
    160809

    Re: Carpe diem

    Hi!

    Many thanks for this further very helpful further reply

    Best wishes
     

    hadronic

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Origumi, the examples you give are all from the biblical idiom "absolute infinitive" + "conjugated form" (or the opposite order), like "mot tamut" (you will die).

    Could there be other use of the absolute infinitive ? Actually, I came across 2 forms that I strongly suspect to be such, within the same sentence from a (semi-vocalized) article from "Sha'ar lamatkhil" :
    ... מוּזכּרים בְּמדריך בּתי-קפה מיתולוגיים, שפּעלוּ בּעיר הָחֵל משנוֹת העשׂרים, עם בּוֹא העלייה הרביעית.

    This form is said to be pretty rare in MH, so it may sound dubious that a beginner's paper would use it twice within the same sentence. Opinion ?
     

    scriptum

    Senior Member
    Israel / Hebrew, Russian
    ... מוּזכּרים בְּמדריך בּתי-קפה מיתולוגיים, שפּעלוּ בּעיר הָחֵל משנוֹת העשׂרים, עם בּוֹא העלייה הרביעית.
    An absolute infinitive is, of course, absolute by definition: it cannot be part of a construct state; it cannot be used as regime; it cannot govern another word.
    In the Bible the non-absolute uses of the absolute infinitive do occur, but they are rare and, according to Gesenius, "open to question on critical grounds".
    בוא in "בוא העליה" is a construct infinitive (as in "לבוא").
    Historically, החל is an absolute infinitive; in the modern language, I would define "-החל מ" as preposition.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    When the infinitive absolute is before the finite verb, it adds emphasis, and when it is after the finite verb it gives the sense of continuity, right?
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Emphasis is often a word linguists use when they don't understand something and want to attach a label to it. I'm not sure it's really easy to define the meaning of the infinitive absolute + finite verb construction.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    לֵ֣ךְ וְאָֽסַפְתָּ֞ אֶת־זִקְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֗ל וְאָמַרְתָּ֤ אֲלֵהֶם֙ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֤י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶם֙ נִרְאָ֣ה אֵלַ֔י אֱלֹהֵ֧י אַבְרָהָ֛ם יִצְחָ֥ק וְיַעֲקֹ֖ב לֵאמֹ֑ר פָּקֹ֤ד פָּקַ֙דְתִּי֙ אֶתְכֶ֔ם וְאֶת־הֶעָשׂ֥וּי לָכֶ֖ם בְּמִצְרָֽיִם׃
    (שמות ג טז)

    ...and indeed I paid attention to you and to what was done to you in Egypt.

    How else would you translate this? :confused:
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    Is your goal to translate or is your goal to understand the Hebrew?

    If you're goal is to translate, then in cases of uncertainty, you have to use your creative license.

    If your goal is to understand the Hebrew, then you no longer have any creative license. The uncertainty is the reality and there is no way around it.
     

    JAN SHAR

    Senior Member
    pashto
    Bill Barrick from The Master's Seminary confirms what Ali Smith is saying.

    7. Cognate Infinitive Absolute
    This grammatical element is what I have often termed the “CIA twins”: the prepositive intensive cognate infinitive absolute (PI CIA) and the postpositive continuative cognate infinitive absolute (PC CIA). “Prepositive” refers to the infinitive absolute coming before the finite form of the same verb root. “Postpositive” refers to the infinitive absolute following the finite form of the same verb root. The exact nature of these two constructions’ meanings has been a topic of debate. However, there is much to the view that PI CIA is an emphatic or intensive representation of the verbal action or state while PC CIA expresses a continual or repetitive action or state.

    I got that from his pdf
     

    Drink

    Senior Member
    English - New England, Russian - Moscow
    There are many who say that. But as I said, "emphasis" is often a word linguists use when they don't know really understanding something. This is especially the case if they don't go into detail and explain exactly what exactly is emphasized. Is the truth of the verb emphasized? Is this particular action emphasized over another possible action? Is it simply more forceful (e.g. "he isn't just gonna be put to death, he's gonna be be put to death real hard")? These are all forms of emphasis, and these aren't the only ones either. It could be that it has all these different meanings, but that's something that needs to be demonstrated with evidence and no merely implicitly asserted.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    If it's true that when the cognate infinitive absolute succeeds the verb it imparts continuity, what are we to make of this:

    כֹּ֤ה אָמַר֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה יַ֣עַן עֲשׂ֥וֹת אֱד֛וֹם בִּנְקֹ֥ם נָקָ֖ם לְבֵ֣ית יְהוּדָ֑ה וַיֶּאְשְׁמ֥וּ אָשׁ֖וֹם וְנִקְּמ֥וּ בָהֶֽם׃
    לָכֵ֗ן כֹּ֤ה אָמַר֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יֱהֹוִ֔ה וְנָטִ֤תִי יָדִי֙ עַל־אֱד֔וֹם וְהִכְרַתִּ֥י מִמֶּ֖נָּה אָדָ֣ם וּבְהֵמָ֑ה וּנְתַתִּ֤יהָ חׇרְבָּה֙ מִתֵּימָ֔ן וּדְדָ֖נֶה בַּחֶ֥רֶב יִפֹּֽלוּ׃
    (יחזקאל כה יב-יג)

    Thus said the Lord Y-----, "Because Edom acted vengefully against the house of Judah and made itself guilty, and avenged themselves upon them." Therefore, the Lord Y----- said thus: "I will stretch out my hand against Edom and cut off man and beast from it and make it a wasteland. From Teman to Dedan they will fall by the sword."

    The verb qal אשׁם means 'to make oneself guilty'. Does וַיֶּאְשְׁמ֥וּ אָשׁ֖וֹם mean they made themselves guilty again and again? :confused:
     

    JAN SHAR

    Senior Member
    pashto
    Why can't וַיֶּאְשְׁמ֥וּ אָשׁ֖וֹם mean they were continually guilty? Why does the verb אשם (from pa'al) have to mean "to make oneself guilty"? Why can't it mean "to be guilty"?
     
    Top