أرضي شوكي

Anatoli

Senior Member
Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
Hello,

It's been a long time since I posted here.

Can someone please tell me about the inflection of أرضي شوكي in the formal Arabic? I know it's a borrowing from the English "artichoke" but is it declined as a noun + adjective? If yes, then why an't find I any evidence of the accusative form "أرضيا شوكيا"? Please advise.
 
  • rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    I would probably go with خرشوف just to avoid such a situation :)

    That said, the term أرضي شوكي is new to me. Certain dictionaries treat it as two separate words such as الغني, with a tanween on both words. If so, أرضيا شوكيا would be correct.
    الرائد treats it as a compound word أرضي-شوكي. In which case it would probably be treated like the compound name معديكرب, with a sukoon on the first yaa, while the last letter would be inflected as a diptote (if indefinite). Or it could be treated as compound numbers with a sukoon on the first and last yaa in this case.
     

    Ghabi

    AL/OL/Ar/Zh mod
    Cantonese
    Or it could be treated as compound numbers with a sukoon on the first and last yaa in this case
    Do you mean fat7a? As a thought experiment (because it's unlikely such a newfangled coinage would be inflected at all), I would go for 2arDiyya shawkiyya, along the lines of خمسةَ عشرَ and حيصَ بيصَ.
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Do you mean fat7a? As a thought experiment (because it's unlikely such a newfangled coinage would be inflected at all), I would go for 2arDiyya shawkiyya, along the lines of خمسةَ عشرَ and حيصَ بيصَ.
    Although compound numbers end in a fatHa, I think أرضي شوكي is pronounced (in dialects) with a sukoon on both parts ArDi-shōki, which I think can be accepted as is in Standard Arabic.
    For example other compound words can end in a kasra always like ِخازِ باز or ِسيبويه (which is considered as a compound form). An example of the sukoon is the name معدي كرب with a sukoon on the yaa. So I think it can be generalized on أرضي شوكي giving ArDi-shawki.
     

    eskandar

    Moderator
    English (US)
    I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.
    Well, they're both true. English 'artichoke' is ultimately derived from the Arabic الخرشوف . But the term أرضي شوكي seems to be a fairly transparent more recent borrowing from English (or another European language). This kind of re-borrowing is not at all uncommon.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    I'm pretty sure it's the other way around.
    Hi Elroy. Thanks. Apparently, it's a twice-borrowed term, isn't it? "Artichoke" comes from الخرشوف and أرضي شوكي comes from "artichoke".

    So, per rayloom (thanks!):
    1st paradigm (in the singular): nominative: أَرْضِيٌّ شَوْكِيٌّ, accusative: أَرْضِيًّا شَوْكِيًّا‏, genitive أَرْضِيٍّ شَوْكِيٍّ
    2nd paradigm (in the singular): nominative: أَرْضِي شَوْكِيٌّ, accusative: أَرْضِي شَوْكِيًّا‏, genitive أَرْضِي شَوْكِيٍّ

    Is that correct?

    الرائد treats it as a compound word أرضي-شوكي. In which case it would probably be treated like the compound name معديكرب, with a sukoon on the first yaa, while the last letter would be inflected as a diptote (if indefinite). Or it could be treated as compound numbers with a sukoon on the first and last yaa in this case.
    I am not sure what resources you're referring to, though.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    It sounds bizarre to me with any حركة on أرضي. I perceive the whole thing as a single indivisible lexical item.
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    So, per rayloom (thanks!):
    1st paradigm (in the singular): nominative: أَرْضِيٌّ شَوْكِيٌّ, accusative: أَرْضِيًّا شَوْكِيًّا‏, genitive أَرْضِيٍّ شَوْكِيٍّ
    2nd paradigm (in the singular): nominative: أَرْضِي شَوْكِيٌّ, accusative: أَرْضِي شَوْكِيًّا‏, genitive أَرْضِي شَوْكِيٍّ

    Is that correct?


    I am not sure what resources you're referring to, though.
    The resource is معجم الرائد, which was just to see if it was treated as a compound noun تركيب مزجي or not.
    The second paradigm would be ArDi-shawki in all cases, like in colloquial varieties, and since there are other precedents in Classical Arabic of compound nouns which aren't inflected, called مبنية.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    The resource is معجم الرائد, which was just to see if it was treated as a compound noun تركيب مزجي or not.
    The second paradigm would be ArDi-shawki in all cases, like in colloquial varieties, and since there are other precedents in Classical Arabic of compound nouns which aren't inflected, called مبنية.
    Thanks. OK, I see the invariable is also a possibility. Didn't you suggest this?:
    Or it could be treated as compound numbers with a sukoon on the first and last yaa in this case.
    If yes, then would that be a diptote? Sorry for asking so many questions. I can't find any resource on this.
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Thanks. OK, I see the invariable is also a possibility. Didn't you suggest this?:

    If yes, then would that be a diptote? Sorry for asking so many questions. I can't find any resource on this.
    Diptotes and triptotes are معربات (inflectables). الأسماء المبنية are words that have a fixed ending regardless of case like compound numbers and certain compound nouns like Sibawayhi.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    Thanks rayloo, but sorry, I'm still not satisfied. I know what diptote and triptote is. All I want is unambiguous clarity about the inflection of the term.

    1. Declined as a compound word, both behave as adjectives (I have provided the paradigm in the singular):
    Certain dictionaries treat it as two separate words such as الغني, with a tanween on both words. If so, أرضيا شوكيا would be correct.
    2. Invariable:
    The second paradigm would be ArDi-shawki in all cases, like in colloquial varieties, and since there are other precedents in Classical Arabic of compound nouns which aren't inflected, called مبنية.
    3. Diptote but only the last word is declined, the first part is invariable. In that case a definite form would be الأرضي شوكي:
    الرائد treats it as a compound word أرضي-شوكي. In which case it would probably be treated like the compound name معديكرب, with a sukoon on the first yaa, while the last letter would be inflected as a diptote (if indefinite).
    Can you please confirm my conclusions? It would be great if you also link to the dictionaries but I understand it can be difficult.
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Hi Anatoly.
    Yes, these are the 3 paradigms that I suspect. Unfortunately I couldn't find any references for these paradigms except what I concluded from the dictionary entries.
    This is for example the entry in معجم الرائد:
    moramora
    You'll notice that it doesn't contain any inflections. It treats the word as a single word الأرضي شوكي (a compound word in Arabic), so like other compounds I believe it would be treated as of an invariable inflection (probably with a sukoon as that's how it's pronounced in dialects, and there are precedents) or as a diptote in the indefinite.
     

    Anatoli

    Senior Member
    Native: русский (Russian), home country: English
    Thanks and sorry for the late reply! I tried to search for examples in the dual or plural but could only find "الأرضي شوكيين", one example from Google books. What's the deal with the plural or what's your gut feeling or Sprachgefühl suggests?
     

    analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    It seems from examples on google that ارضي شوكي typically has collective meaning like most basic fruit/vegetable names (think بطاطا, تفاح, برتقال) - it's not a singulative - and as such is unlikely to have a plural. The singulative seems to be حبة ارضي شوكي, which makes sense since حبة is the go-to word for 'single piece of' for words that don't have a proper singulative - حبة بطاطا for 'potato' for example. If you asked me to form a plural I would say ارضي شوكيات but حبات ارضي شوكي seems more likely.
     
    Last edited:

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    Thanks and sorry for the late reply! I tried to search for examples in the dual or plural but could only find "الأرضي شوكيين", one example from Google books. What's the deal with the plural or what's your gut feeling or Sprachgefühl suggests?
    If I were to follow my gut feeling, I would never use الأرضي شوكيون. I'd prefer the feminine sound plural treating it as a single word الأرضي شوكيات.
    As Analeeh said, I'd treat أرضي شوكي as a collective word like تفاح. Probably never use a singular (of the collective) أرضي شوكية, but instead use a partitive construction.
     
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