أهرامات

eac

Senior Member
USA, English
Would someone please correct this translation? I understand every word of the Arabic, but the syntax is a nightmare and I know I have it wrong.

ويأتي هذا الهرم ليكون الهرم الثالث في مجموعة أهرامات الملكات زوجات الملك بيبي الأول والتي أعلن عن اكتشاف اثنين منها من قبل ولكن العلماء لم يجدوا حتى الآن اسم صاحبة كل هرم من زوجات الملك وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بني لها.

This pyramid has become the third pyramid in the collection of pyramids of the queen wives of Bibi the First, of which the discovery of two had been announced before, but scholars had not found, until now, the name of the woman of each the pyramids from among the wives of the king. The tablet on which the name of the queen Nawbawanat was discovered, which was unknown to scholars before, was the woman of one of the pyramids, especially that the inscription on the tablet says, “Wife of the King Al-Habouba, from him,” which confirms that one of the pyramids was built for her.

Hopefully, someone can make sense of the relations between clauses in the Arabic, because my English translation, the second sentence at least, makes very little sense.

Thanks!
 
  • ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    eac said:
    Would someone please correct this translation? I understand every word of the Arabic, but the syntax is a nightmare and I know I have it wrong.

    ويأتي هذا الهرم ليكون الهرم الثالث في مجموعة أهرامات الملكات زوجات الملك بيبي الأول والتي أعلن عن اكتشاف اثنين منها من قبل ولكن العلماء لم يجدوا حتى الآن اسم صاحبة كل هرم من زوجات الملك وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بني لها.

    This pyramid has become the third pyramid(is the third one) in the collection of queens' pyramids ,the wives of the King , Bibi , the First, two of which had been discovered and announced before. However, scholars(archeologists/scientists)had not found, until now, the woman's name of each pyramid among the wives of the king. If the tablet discovered on which the name of the queen "Nawbawanat" was incised, which was unknown to scholars before, was the owner of one of the pyramids , especially that the inscription on the tablet says, “Wife of the King , beloved by him,” confirms that one of the pyramids was built for her.

    Hopefully, someone can make sense of the relations between clauses in the Arabic, because my English translation, the second sentence at least, makes very little sense.

    Thanks!
    I am not an English native.
    Arabic text is somewhat disorganized .This is my try .
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    Here's a working translation:

    This pyramid has become the third pyramid in the group of pyramids of the wives of King Bibi the First. The discovery of two of these pyramids has been announced before, but scientists have not yet found the name of the possessor of each of the pyramids from among the wives of the king, even if the tablet that was found was...the name of Queen Nawbawanat - who scientists did not know before was the possessor of one of the pyramids - especially because the inscription on the tablet says "the wife of the king, his beloved," and that confirms that one of these pyramids was built for her.

    ويأتي هذا الهرم ليكون الهرم الثالث في مجموعة أهرامات الملكات زوجات الملك بيبي الأول والتي أعلن عن اكتشاف اثنين منها من قبل ولكن العلماء لم يجدوا حتى الآن اسم صاحبة كل هرم من زوجات الملك وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بني لها.

    I am puzzled by the part in blue; there seems to be a missing verb or something.

    I agree that the Arabic text is unorganized, and I am especially skeptical about the quality of the writing because the word in red is of the wrong gender.

    Could you have mistyped something, by any chance?
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    ayed said:
    I see :
    If the tablet found...then it confirms that ...
    We're missing a verb or an adjective (a خبر كان!), Ayed.

    On a second reading, I think اسم is what was found, but we're still missing something:

    If the tablet on which the name of Queen Nawbawanat was found was...what?!
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Well,
    Scientists have not identified the name of this queen so far even if Queen's name that incised on the tablet was the owner of one of the pyramids.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    ayed said:
    Well,
    Scientists have not identified the name of this queen so far even if Queen's name that incised on the tablet was the owner of one of the pyramids.
    Trying to follow you...

    Do you mean that والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء refers to اسم الملكة نوب-ونت? That would explain the gender...

    But it wouldn't help me come to grips with the whole sentence.

    We have an "if."
    The subject of the "if clause" seems to be the tablet.
    "If the tablet..."
    Then we have a large adjective clause.
    "If the tablet on which was found the name of Queen N., which was not known to scientists before..."
    So far so good.

    Then we have أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات all of a sudden. Here's where things get messy.

    First of all, I don't see how that is a logical خبر كان.
    One would not say "إن كانت اللوحة...أنها صاحبة..." That makes no sense.
    Secondly, how can the tablet = the owner/possessor?

    I'm still lost and confused.
     

    ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات
    وإن كان اسم الملكة نوب-ونت المنقوش على اللوحة هي صاحبة أحد الأهرامات
    إقرا النص الأزرق
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    I agree with you and Elroy that the text is very bad and not well constructed. Does it come from a newspaper ? Newspapers are getting worse everyday -on the level of language and other things too :)

    eac said:
    وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بني لها.

    إذا أمكن أن أعيد صياغة هذه الجملة قد أقول: وإن كانت اللوحة التى عُثر عليها، منقوش عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت الذى لم يكن معروفًا للعلماء من قبل، توضح أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات، خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بُنى لها.


    This pyramid is the third one to be discovered in the collection of pyramids of the queen wives of Bibi the First, of which the discovery of two had been announced before (I think we can skip the redundant part : discovering a third pyramid logically indicates that two has been discovered before.), but scholars had not found, until now, the name of the queen to whom belong each pyramid from among the wives of the king (I think this too can be omitted) .The tablet which was discovered and which holds the name of the queen Nawbawanat (I'm not sure it's to be written like this) was discovered, which who was unknown to scholars before (until now), indicates that one of the pyramids belongs to her, especially that the inscription on the tablet says, “Beloved Wife of the King Al-Habouba, from him,” (al-ma7buba minhu is a poor translation of beloved by him "another poor translation" :) so, ma7buba is an adjective not a name) which confirms that one of the pyramids was built for her.

    So the paragraph can go in English like this (just my suggestion) :
    This pyramid is the third one to be discovered in the collection of pyramids of the queen wives of Bibi the First, but scholars had not found, until now, the name of the queen to whom belong each pyramid. But the tablet which was discovered and which holds the name of the queen Nawbawanat, who was unknown to scholars until now, indicates that one of the pyramids belongs to her, especially that the inscription on the tablet says, "Beloved Wife of the King", which confirms that one of the pyramids was built for her.

    P.S. I used "but" to translate what I understood of the "wa in kanat...". (but the tablet... indicates that...)



     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I truly fail to see how Ayed and Cherine arrived at the "indicates" explanation.

    The two versions that Ayed offered in post #8 do not say the same thing - for one thing, I would not say أنها to mean هي - and I still maintain that it is the Queen, not the name, who is the صاحبة. Also, إذا كانت does not mean "but"! And مما to me is not normally used in an "if-then" construction - I would have said فهذا. And nobody has answered my question about the missing خبر كان!

    This is an awful, awful sentence.
     

    eac

    Senior Member
    USA, English
    Looking at your posts, it made me a little relieved that native Arabic speakers thought the sentence was as mangled as I did. I checked again to make sure that I had reproduced it accurately, and indeed I did. The textbook I took this from ("Standard Arabic: an advanced course" Dickins & Watson, eds. Cambridge University Press) introduces the text this way: "Read the following text from الأهرام 1990 and do exercises i-iv, etc." So I don't know if it is from a book or tourist guide, or what. This would not be the first time that this textbook has had an apparent error.

    I also feel silly not to have recognized محبوبة as a participle. Yikes, that was dumb.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    I have read and reread and reread the sentence. I'm pretty sure I know what it's supposed to say, but I still maintain - more strongly than ever - that it's missing a verb (which, by the way, was my first intuition!).

    I think it's supposed to be saying, as a follow-up of "scientists are still unsure...":

    Nevertheless, the tablet on which the name of Queen N. (which was previously unknown to scientists) was found indicates/suggests that she is the possessor of one of the pyramids - especially because the inscription on the tablet says "the wife of the king, his beloved," confirming that one of these pyramids was built for her.
    That to me, would necessitate:

    وإن كانت اللوحة التي عثر عليها اسم الملكة نوب-ونت والذي لم يكن معروفا للعلماء من قبل توضح/تُظهر/تشير إلى أنها صاحبة أحد الأهرامات خاصة أن النقش على اللوحة يقول "زوجة الملك المحبوبة منه" مما يؤكد أن أحد هذه الأهرامات بني لها.

    Otherwise, I remain as baffled and flabbergasted as before.

    Ay ba2ta3 iidii iza 'l-jumleh mish naa2sa fi3el!!! :D
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    elroy said:
    I have read and reread and reread the sentence. I'm pretty sure I know what it's supposed to say, but I still maintain - more strongly than ever - that it's missing a verb (which, by the way, was my first intuition!).
    I didn't say anything different : it does indeed lack a verb.
    Look at my previous post : I rephrased the last part of the Arabic sentence.

    Ay ba2ta3 iidii iza 'l-jumleh mish naa2sa fi3el!!! :D
    Ba3d esh-sharr 3ala iidak :D
    Just re-read my previous post please. I'm sorry it was long, but I thought I'd put my version in Arabic AND in English.
    If you still think it's confusing, we can always re-discuss it.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    eac said:
    ... "Read the following text from الأهرام 1990 and do exercises i-iv, etc." So I don't know if it is from a book or tourist guide, or what. This would not be the first time that this textbook has had an apparent error.
    It's al-Ahram newspaper, daily Egyptian newspaper, sponsored by the gov. It's the oldest Egyptian newspaper (goes back to 1876) and one of the major newspapers (maybe in the Arab world). The problem with this paper -apart from the fact that it's a governmental one- is that it's getting worse and worse every day on the level of language: too many spelling and grammar mistakes. So maybe this isn't the fault of your text book after all.
    So, keep using Al-Ahram as an exercice source, it's a good newspaper (I read it daily) but simply keep in mind that it's capable of the silliest mistakes :)

    I also feel silly not to have recognized محبوبة as a participle. Yikes, that was dumb.
    Don't feel silly. The sentence is so complicated that it would make you forget your name (Egyptian expression) تنسيك اسمك tenassiik ismak :)
     

    elroy

    Imperfect Mod
    US English/Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    cherine said:
    I didn't say anything different : it does indeed lack a verb.
    Look at my previous post : I rephrased the last part of the Arabic sentence.


    Ba3d esh-sharr 3ala iidak :D
    Just re-read my previous post please. I'm sorry it was long, but I thought I'd put my version in Arabic AND in English.
    If you still think it's confusing, we can always re-discuss it.
    Cherine, I read your rephrased version, and I agree that that one makes sense.

    What I was confused about was that your post seemed to suggest that your version was a paraphrase of the original one, as if the original one said the same thing - just not as clearly. Having read your subsequent explanation, I now see that you were not sharing a paraphrase, but your understanding of what the writer of the sentence intended to say but did not.

    That makes me feel much better. :) And now I don't have to cut off my hand. ;)
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    What I was confused about was that your post seemed to suggest that your version was a paraphrase of the original one, as if the original one said the same thing - just not as clearly.
    No I said it clearly that I was going to rephrase it. My idea was to put the "missing" words that are necessary to complete the meaning which we "felt" but was not clearly expressed :)

    Having read your subsequent explanation, I now see that you were not sharing a paraphrase, but your understanding of what the writer of the sentence intended to say but did not.
    Yes, you got it right :)

    That makes me feel much better. :) And now I don't have to cut off my hand. ;)
    LOL , yes, ba3d esh-shar 3ala eidak :)
     

    Josh_

    Senior Member
    U.S., English
    eac said:
    Looking at your posts, it made me a little relieved that native Arabic speakers thought the sentence was as mangled as I did. I checked again to make sure that I had reproduced it accurately, and indeed I did. The textbook I took this from ("Standard Arabic: an advanced course" Dickins & Watson, eds. Cambridge University Press) introduces the text this way: "Read the following text from الأهرام 1990 and do exercises i-iv, etc." So I don't know if it is from a book or tourist guide, or what. This would not be the first time that this textbook has had an apparent error.
    Hello eac,
    I actually have that book, but have not delved into it much yet. I briefly looked through it yesterday but could not find the text. What page is it on?
     
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