ابن ، بن

licinio

Senior Member
Italian
ابن starts with alif wasla in MSA.
So I was wondering at the word "bin" as occurs in people's names. Is it pronounced so because of a dialect influence?

I thought it should be "bnu", shouldn't it? for instance, how do you read this:

الامير عبدالعزيز بن فهد بن عبدالعزيز?
 
  • ayed

    Senior Member
    Arabic(Saudi)
    Alif comes in the following cases:

    1.If you want to call someone by his father's name, you say :
    * ibn fahad ابن فهد
    2.If the word son"bin" comes at the beginning of the row, it is prefixed by alif" ا " without "hamzah" , of course.
    * ibn fahad.
     

    licinio

    Senior Member
    Italian
    Thanks, Ayed,
    do you read "mu7ammad bin 3abd allah bin khalid"?
    Or طارق بن زياد Tariq bin ziyyad?
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    I don't know about the others, but I read:
    - Tariqibn(a/i/u) ziyaad.
    - Fahdibn(a/i/u) 3abdil3aziiz
    - Mu7ammadibn(a/i/u) 3abdillaah

    The choice of vowels at the end of "ibn" depends on the grammar of course موقعها في الجملة . And the same goes for the "i" of "ibn" itself:
    رأيت طارقَ ابن زياد
    ra2aytu Taariqabna Ziyaad.
    تحدثت مع طارقِ ابن زياد
    ta7addathtu ma3a Taariqibni...
    هذا طارقُ ابن زياد
    haadha Taariqubnu Ziyaad
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    Traditionally in the area that is now called Saudi Arabia, it was pronounced "ibin", e.g. fahad ibin abdel3aziz. However, in the last few decades, the local dialect has become heavily influenced by Arabs from other countries such as the Levant and Egypt, who often worked as school teachers in Saudi Arabia. These usually did not have this word in their vernacular dialects and would read it as it appeared on the page, i.e. "bin", and this pronunciation influenced a lot of younger people in Saudi Arabia. That's why, with certain names (usually members of the royal family), you will often hear "bin" rather than "ibin".

    Of course, in Classical/Standard Arabic, it is pronounced ibni, abna, or ubnu, depending on case (e.g. muhammadubnu abdillah, khalidibnil walid, ahmadabna abdillah, etc.).
     

    licinio

    Senior Member
    Italian
    I don't know about the others, but I read:
    - Tariqibn(a/i/u) ziyaad.
    - Fahdibn(a/i/u) 3abdil3aziiz
    - Mu7ammadibn(a/i/u) 3abdillaah

    Is the red i the pronunciation of the first letter of ibn? If it is so, this means you treat the initial alif as alif hamza rather than alif wasla, which seems to be the current trend.
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    No, I was just indicating that the "i" forms a part of the words and is being pronounced as the French liaison. In other words: I don't pronounce the alif of ibn as a hamzat qaT3, but as a hamzat waSl.

    Please check the second paragraph of my other post to know what I mean by the use of the red to indicate the vowels.
     

    elroy

    Imperfect mod
    US English, Palestinian Arabic bilingual
    رأيت طارقَ ابن زياد
    ra2aytu Taariqabna Ziyaad.
    تحدثت مع طارقِ ابن زياد
    ta7addathtu ma3a Taariqibni...
    هذا طارقُ ابن زياد
    haadha Taariqubnu Ziyaad
    That's exactly how I would pronounce those sentences. :thumbsup: And that's still how I'd pronounce them if ابن were replaced with بن.

    "Bin" is not a correct pronunciation of بن when it means "son." "Bin" means "coffee grounds" (in Palestinian Arabic). :)
     

    seitt

    Senior Member
    English/Welsh
    Greetings,

    Please, how do you pronounce this name (قيس بن الملوح)? It's fine if you use fatha etc.

    My particular problem is بن. Is it vocalized as بِنُ in Modern Arabic? Was it vocalized differently in Classical Arabic?

    All the best, and many thanks,

    Simon
     
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    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    The baa should (in Classical & MSA) always have a sukuun (not followed by a short vowel).
    qaisu 'bnu 'l-mulawwa7(i)
    qaisa 'bna 'l-mulawwa7(i)
    qaisi 'bni 'l-mulawwa7(i)

    In liaison, it would sound:
    qaisu-bnu-l-mulawwa7
    qaisi-bni-l-mulawwa7
    qaisa-bna-l-mulawwa7
     

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    English – US
    Hi All,

    This all makes sense to me except for the lack of تنوين on the given name قيس . In order to pronounce these names قيس وطارق ومحمد وفهد without تنوين they would need to be the مضاف in an إضافة or they would need to be diptote, but if they were diptote they couldn't take كسرة . Names like قيس بن الملوح seem to be an example of البدل or opposition (e.g. qais, the son of al-mulawwa7). In البدل there is no need to drop the تنوين from names; for example, محمدٌ النبيُّ . So shouldn't we pronounce this name like

    qaisuni-bnu-l-mulawwa7i
    qaisini-bni-l-mulawwa7i
    qaisani-bna-l-mulawwa7i

    with تنوين الضم والكسر والفتح respectively and the helping vowel كسرة to facilitate the pronunciation of the التقاء الساكنين ? I can find one example in القرآن

    وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ
     

    cherine

    Moderator
    Arabic (Egypt).
    Hi,

    There's a little difference between saying X is the son of Y (as in the verse you quoted) and X, son of Y as in فلان بن فلان .
    Note the difference between:
    قيسٌ ابن الملوح = Qays is the son of al-Mulawwa7 (describing whose son he is)
    and قيس بن الملوح = Qays, son of al-Mulawwa7 (his name).
     

    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    This all makes sense to me except for the lack of تنوين on the given name قيس .
    Hi Luke,
    The tanwin is omitted in such cases. There are multiple theories on the matter, I'll mention Sibawayh's theory:


    كل اسمٍ غالبٍ وصف بابنٍ ثم أضيف إلى اسم غالب أو كنية أو أمٍ وذلك، قولك: هذا زيد بن عمروٍ، وإنما حذفوا التنوين من هذا النحو حيث كثر في كلامهم ؛لأن التنوين حرفٌ ساكن وقع بعده حرفٌ ساكن ومن كلامهم أن يحذفوا الأول إذا التقى ساكنان


    He says more on the matter though.

    Edit: I just saw Cherine's response. I agree. There is a difference in the meaning associated when you don't omit the tanwin.
     

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    English – US
    Okay good to know, thank you Rayloom.
    There's a little difference between saying X is the son of Y (as in the verse you quoted) and X, son of Y as in فلان بن فلان .
    Note the difference between:
    قيسٌ ابن الملوح = Qays is the son of al-Mulawwa7 (describing whose son he is)
    and قيس بن الملوح = Qays, son of al-Mulawwa7 (his name).

    In all the instances of عيسى ابن مريم in القرآن we see translated, "Jesus/Isa, the son of Mary/Marium". Yet it is written with ابن instead of بن . In fact and correct me if I'm wrong, بن does not seem to appear in القرآن . I guess my question is, would عيسى be written (pretending it were declinable) without تنوين here or would ابن transform into بن or both?
     
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    rayloom

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Hijazi Arabic)
    What you said might be true.
    There are other opinions on why the alif is kept in the spelling of عيسى ابن مريم.

    Of note, the Quran spells يا ابن أم as يبنؤم.

    In general, the variations of the spelling of the Quran have also been a subject of much debate and controversy.

    One of the theories is that the words of the Quran are written how they would be read at the beginning or end of speech, if stopping at that word was optional.
    Of course among other theories.

    Basically there are views on why there are differences on the spelling of many of the words of the Quran.

    A famous old grammarian once said:
    خطان لا يقاسان ولا يقاس عليهما: القرآن والعروض
     

    إسكندراني

    Senior Member
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    Curiously, in Egypt it's normal to use ابن for emphasis though we don't usually use it. For example
    محمد حسين
    (Note we usually give the father's name not the 'surname'.)
    If someone wanted to really emphasise something when talking to him they might say:
    يا محمّد يا ابن حسين
    (or يا محمد يا حسين)
    her it would be pronounced ' ya bne 7sein '

    Also to differentiate between people of the same name:
    محمّد ابن حسين مش محمّد ابن كريم
    me7ammad ebne 7sein mesh m7ammad ebne kariim
     

    Viriathus

    Member
    Spanish, Dutch
    [Moderator's Note: Merged with a previous thread]
    Could someone explain me the difference between إبن and بن and when to use them?
    Also, did I use the correct harakat and/or cases in these names?

    I think that at the end of الرَحْمَنِ ,الحَكَمُ and طَارِقُ the tanwin is omitted. I don't really understand the reason though.

    عَبْدُ الرَحْمَنِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدُ
    الحَكَمُ بْنُ عَبْدُ الرَّحْمَنِ
    طَارِقُ بْنُ زِيَّادُ

    Thanks a lot!
     

    Kinan

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    When "ben" comes at the beginning of the name it's written إبن like إبن زياد but when you mention the whole name it's written بن like طارق بن زياد
     

    chaos90

    Member
    Arabic
    "بن" is used when it falls between the name of the son and the father . like " طارق بن زياد " , as طارق is the son and زياد is the father .
    "ابن" is used when it comes before the name of the father without following the name of the son ( the name of the son is omitted) . like "قال ابن عمر" , as عمر is the father and the name of the son is not mentioned .
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    You are correct to say that tanwīn is always omitted before bnu. But you forgot to put the name of the father in the genitive case. It should be:

    ...bnu muḥammadin
    ...bnu ʻabdi.......
    ...bnu ziyādin (no tashdīd !)
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    One thing no one seems to have pointed out is that there is no such word as "bin." ابن and بن are exactly the same word and are pronounced exactly the same way. The aleph is omitted as a matter of orthography when it occurs between two names but this should not affect the pronunciation. In fact, if the second name occurs on another line the aleph is restored. For example:
    محمد بن عبد الله
    ابن عبد المطلب بن هاشم
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Yes, the spelling ابن is used at the beginning of a line. It is also used in names like ابن خلدون where it indicates not true filiation, but refers to a remote ancestor. بن is written only between the name of a man and that of his biological father.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Hi,

    Is it "اِبْن" or "إِبْن" ? What is the difference ?

    I think it is a "hamzatu-l-wasl", what do you think?

    Merci.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Although it generally seems that ابن is used at the beginning of the name, I found ابن is used between names:

    زید بن کلاب ابن مرة بن کعب ...ـ (used frequently in Ibn Hisham biography of Prophet)
    My first impression was that it is due to avoid repetition of بن because of aesthetic reasons. Am I correct?

    On the other hand, the use of بن at the beginning is also not uncommon (e.g. famous cleric بن باز, Tunisian بن علی, French players Benzema and Ben Arfa).
    However, in this case all are family names.

    I will appreciate if you give me you opinion about these examples.
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    Most Arabs write their family name as it is spoken in their own native dialect. For this reason I am reluctant to say that بن باز or بو رقيبه are "errors". This is what these people are called in their own country.
     

    Treaty

    Senior Member
    Persian
    Most Arabs write their family name as it is spoken in their own native dialect. For this reason I am reluctant to say that بن باز or بو رقيبه are "errors". This is what these people are called in their own country.
    In the case of بن باز, Wadi Hanifa is from the same country.

    Anyway, my question is still on: why in some cases (like in Ibn Hisham book), both ابن and بن are used in a same context?
     

    fdb

    Senior Member
    French (France)
    I think I answered your question in no. 22. Between the name of a father and a son you should use ابن only at the beginning of a line. But one cannot guarantee that a computer programm knows this when it is re-doing the line breaks. You will not find this mistake in carefully printed books.
     

    إسكندراني

    Senior Member
    عربي (مصر)ـ | en (gb)
    ابن can only come between names in this circumstance:
    محمد بن علي ابن راجح بن خالد
    Mohammad son of Ali is the son of Ra:jiH son of Khalid.

    Many family names have things attached to them - a bit like Williamson etc. - بن علي، بورقيبة (بدون مسافة)، بن باز، ولد داداة
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    Most Arabs write their family name as it is spoken in their own native dialect. For this reason I am reluctant to say that بن باز or بو رقيبه are "errors". This is what these people are called in their own country.

    In our native dialects, we write (and pronounce) it as ابن باز. It's not a family name in the western sense; it literally means "descendent of Baz", just as in Classical Arabic. It's not comparable to the situation in Tunisia or South Yemen where بن علي or بن لادن are more like western family names. Due to the influence of other dialects (including ones inside Saudi Arabia) and (ironically) due to increased literacy, it is a common error for some people to say بن باز, but among those who actually speak this dialect we still say ابن باز.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    ابن can only come between names in this circumstance:
    محمد بن علي ابن راجح بن خالد
    Mohammad son of Ali is the son of Ra:jiH son of Khalid.

    Many family names have things attached to them - a bit like Williamson etc. - بن علي، بورقيبة (بدون مسافة)، بن باز، ولد داداة
    That makes a lot of sense. However, when speaking can you tell the difference between, say, "Muhammad, son of Khalid" and "Muhammad is the son of Khalid"? Based on what Cherine said above I think both would be pronounced the same way: muhammadubnu khaalidin". In writing, the difference would be clear though:

    محمد بن خالد (Muhammad, son of Khalid)
    محمد ابن خالد (Muhammad is the son of Khalid)
     

    Abu Talha

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    The difference is the tanween:
    Muhammad, son of Khalid: muhammadu -bnu khalidin OR muhammada -bna khalidin OR muhammadi -bni khalidin
    Muhammad is the son of Khalid: muhammaduni -bnu khalidin

    See:
    There's a little difference between saying X is the son of Y (as in the verse you quoted) and X, son of Y as in فلان بن فلان .
    Note the difference between:
    قيسٌ ابن الملوح = Qays is the son of al-Mulawwa7 (describing whose son he is)
    and قيس بن الملوح = Qays, son of al-Mulawwa7 (his name).
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    Thanks! So, when you say something like جاء قيسُ ابنُ الملوحِ (note the lack of tanween on the final letter of قيس), the word ابْنُ is مرفوع because it's a بدل, and the مُبْدَل منه is قيس, right?
    Or is ابن a نعت and قيس the منعوت? What is the relationship between ابن and the word before it?
     

    Wadi Hanifa

    Senior Member
    Arabic
    I think it makes more sense to consider it a نعت or صفة, but seems there are those who argue that it should be considered a بدل. The practical result is the same, though, which is why I've never spent too much time thinking about whether a word is a صفة or a بدل.
     

    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    I was taught it was a بدل, which made sense at the time bu now no so much. I’m not going to spend too much time figuring it out, I’d just say نعت أو بدل and move on😆.
     

    Ali Smith

    Senior Member
    Urdu - Pakistan
    The difference is the tanween:
    Muhammad, son of Khalid: muhammadu -bnu khalidin OR muhammada -bna khalidin OR muhammadi -bni khalidin
    Muhammad is the son of Khalid: muhammaduni -bnu khalidin

    See:
    Thanks! So, one can hear the difference between muhammaduni bnu khaalidin (Muhammad is Khalid's son) and muhammadu bnu khaalidin (Muhammad, son of Khalid). Got it!

    But what if someone said umaru bnu lkhattabi? What would it mean? Umar is the son of al-Khattab or Umar, son of al-Khattab?
     
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