اُومُلْ / اُؤْمُلْ

Ibn Nacer

Senior Member
French - France
Salut,

In a book (A Grammar of the Arabic Language V1 - Wright) I saw this:

hamzah.PNG


It is said : "اُومُلْ not اُؤْمُلْ" but I have seen elsewhere this اُؤْمُلْ...

He seems to apply this rule (source : Hamza Verbs |Learn Arabic Online) :

Rule 1
if two Hamza occur side-by-side in the same lexical word and the first has a vowel while the second does not, the second Hamza must change to the long vowel appropriate to the short vowel on the first
But I think this rule does not apply with a hamzatu-l-wasl...

What do you think ?
 
  • Abu Talha

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    Salut,
    Wright's description is the one that I'm aware of. The recitation of Quranic ayah 46:4 might also be relevant. You can see how different reciters join or pause at ائتوني.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Thank you for this example.

    Wright's description is the one that I'm aware of.
    The example (ائتوني) contradicts what Wright says, no ? Because it is written with a hamzah, it corresponds to اُؤْمُلْ ...

    If we apply Wright's rule ("اُومُلْ not اُؤْمُلْ" or "اِيسِرْ not اِئْسِرْ") to the word ائتوني then we get: "ايتُونِي not ائْتُونِي", no?

    Merci.

    PS : With the conjugator قطرب: برنامج تصريف الأفعال we have this اِئْتُوا and this اُؤْمُلْ with a hamzah...
     
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    Abu Talha

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    The example (ائتوني) contradicts what Wright says, no ? Because it is written with a hamzah, it corresponds to اُؤْمُلْ ...

    If we apply Wright's rule ("اُومُلْ not اُؤْمُلْ" or "اِيسِرْ not اِئْسِرْ") to the word ائتوني then we get: "ايتُونِي not ائْتُونِي", no?
    Well, that could be my error in reproduction. In any case, the Uthmani rasm and diacritics in the madani muSHaf is
    1567717897215.png
    . But the madani muSHaf's diacritics, for various reasons, may not always conform to Standard Arabic. My purpose in referencing this aayah was more for listening to difference in pronunciation and glottal stop location when you join vs when you pause.

    But yes, in Standard Arabic, in the beginning of a sentence, according to Wright, you would write اِيتُونِي. Although, personally, I wouldn't automatically flag ائتوني as an error and would still pronounce it 2iituunii in the beginning of a sentence.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Thank you.

    Well, that could be my error in reproduction. In any case, the Uthmani rasm and diacritics in the madani muSHaf is
    1567717897215.png
    .
    I did not understand, you wrote "ائتوني", the only difference I see is the first letter (ا instead of ٱ )

    But I was not talking about that, I was talking about the second letter : ائتوني It's a hamzah and in ايتوني It's not a hamzah...

    If I understand correctly according to Wright, we must write ايتوني ? But in your example (and also in the conjugator قطرب: برنامج تصريف الأفعال ) the word is written with a hamzah like this ائتوني... That's why I do not understand this rule mentioned by Wright ...


    But yes, in Standard Arabic, in the beginning of a sentence, according to Wright, you would write اِيتُونِي.
    If I understand correctly this rule applies only when the word is at the beginning of the sentence but where do you see this condition* in the passage of the book ?

    Thank you.
    ---------------------
    * However, I saw this condition in another book (جامع الدروس العربية - مصطفى الغلاييني) :


    تصريف السالم والمهموز

    يتصرف السالم والمهموز من الأفعال الثلاثة بلا تغيير فيهما, إلا الأمر من "أخذ وأكل وأمر" فقد جاء بحذف الهمزة, فيقال "خذ وكل ومر" وإلا الأمر من "سأل يسأل" فإنه "سل واسأل"
    وإلا المهموز الأول في المضارع المسند إلى الواحد المتكلم, فإن همزته الثانية تنقلب مدة, مثل "آخذ وآنف وآمر وآتي وآمن",

    وإلا الأمر من المهموز الأول, إن نطق به ابتداء, فإن همزته تنقلب واوا, إن ضم ما قبلها, مثل "أومل يا زهير الخير" وياء إن كسر ما قبلها مثل "إيت يا أسامة المعروف" فإن نطق به موصولا بما قبله, ثبتت همزته على حالها, مثل "يا زهير اؤمل الخير, ويا أسامة ائت المعروف"
    والمضارع من رأى "يرى". والأمر منه "ر" نحو "ر البدر". فإن وقفت عليه قلت "ره" تلحق به هاء السكت.
     
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    Abu Talha

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    I did not understand, you wrote "ائتوني", the only difference I see is the first letter (ا instead of ٱ )
    Yes, that and the dots under final ياء.

    If I understand correctly according to Wright, we must write ايتوني ? But in your example (and also in the conjugator قطرب: برنامج تصريف الأفعال ) the word is written with a hamzah like this ائتوني... That's why I do not understand this rule mentioned by Wright ...
    Perhaps the online conjugation tool shows the spelling assuming it's not in the beginning of a sentence. Also, as mentioned the muSHaf spelling has different spelling conventions than Standard Arabic.

    If I understand correctly this rule applies only when the word is at the beginning of the sentence but where do you see this condition* in the passage of the book ?
    Hmm.. I guess it seems to me Wright assumes the condition "beginning of the sentence" by default and when not in the beginning of the sentence he says: "When a word of this sort, beginning with elif conjunctionis, comes into the wasl, the elif conjunctionis falls away in pronunciation, though it may be retained in writing.
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    I was told that both اُومُلْ - اُؤْمُلْ" and "اِيسِرْ - اِئْسِرْ are correct. These are different ways for pronunciation (different readings).
    Here you are the chapter talking about النطق بالهمزة.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    @Sun-Shine and @Abu Talha : Thank you so much.

    Perhaps the online conjugation tool shows the spelling assuming it's not in the beginning of a sentence.
    I was told that both اُومُلْ - اُؤْمُلْ" and "اِيسِرْ - اِئْسِرْ are correct.
    In practice both writings are used? One for the beginning of the sentence and the other for the inside of the sentence ?

    Here you are the chapter talking about النطق بالهمزة.
    Thank you.
    I see that there are many rules (it's not easy) ... There are some passages about my question ... Examples :


    hamzah1.PNG


    I notice that it is said تقرأ not تكتب ???
     
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    Abu Talha

    Senior Member
    Urdu
    In practice both writings are used? One for the beginning of the sentence and the other for the inside of the sentence ?
    In my understanding:
    writtenpronounced
    beginningاُومُلْ*ʼūmul
    insideقَالَ اؤْمُلْ ، فَأْمُلْqāla ʼmul, faʼmul

    * this is the most authoritative way of writing it that I have seen, although, personally I don't see why أُومُلْ shouldn't be allowed.
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Thank you.
    Yes that's how I understood.

    But I thought that maybe we always (or often) write like this اؤْمُلْ and that we pronounce like this اؤْمُلْ or this اُومُلْ depending on whether the word is at the beginning of the sentence or not.

    Because I have rarely seen this rule mentioned in conjugation courses...
    And the writing فَأْمُلْ is even more rarely mentioned...
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    When I asked the author (whether both are correct in reading and writing in practice or only in Quran) he told me all the readings of Quran are in fus7a and writing reflects/expresses reading so both are correct. But I haven't seen ايسر and اومل used instead of ائسر or اؤمل, this is strange to me.
     
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    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    Thank you.
    Ok it seems that the writings ائسر | اؤمل are more frequent...

    In these examples we have two hamzah, the first of which is a hamzatu-l-wasl ...

    But there is the case where the first hamzah is not a hamzatu-l-wasl... I think that in this case the rule*** I mentioned is more often applied. For example, the verb أَكَلَ, we have أُؤْكَل which becomes أُوكَل.

    This time I have often seen the writing أُوكَل, do you also use this writing ?

    Thank you.


    *** This rule :
    Rule 1
    if two Hamza occur side-by-side in the same lexical word and the first has a vowel while the second does not, the second Hamza must change to the long vowel appropriate to the short vowel on the first.

    Source : Hamza Verbs |Learn Arabic Online
     

    Ibn Nacer

    Senior Member
    French - France
    OK, thanks.
    When you learned the conjugation, you were taught the writing أؤكل ?

    I watched several courses and they often mention the writing أوكل ...
     
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