تلك التي كان ينظمها عادة

jack_1313

Senior Member
English - Australian
Hello.

I'm confused by the phrase in bold the following paragraph from an article about the current protests in Lebanon:

ما يعكسه هذا التحول هو ظهور التعبيرات عن المظالم الاجتماعية التي يعيشها اللبنانيين[sic] واللبنانيات في مساحات غير مألوفة عن تلك التي كان ينظمها عادة وهي إما النقابات، أو منظمات المجتمع المدني الخ.


Syntactically, the way I understand the phrase is
تلك [المساحات] التي كان [ظهور هذه التعبيرات] ينظمها عادة

However, that makes no sense to me. Given the context, it seems likely that the author means the spaces where these expressions usually occur, but I can't derive that meaning from the words written.

Any thoughts? Does the Arabic actually make sense here?
 
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  • fenakhay

    Member
    French (France) / Arabic (Morocco)
    .تلك [المساحات] التي كان [اللبنانيون] ينظمـ[مساحات غير مألوفة] عادة
     

    jack_1313

    Senior Member
    English - Australian
    Hi Fenakhay. Could you perhaps explain what you think this part of the sentence means in English? I still can't really understand the meaning after looking at your adjustments.
     

    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    I think Fenakhay means:
    تلك (المساحات) التي كان (اللبنانيون) ينظمونها (المساحات المعتادة/المألوفة) عادة ?
    ـــــــــــ
    Those (well-known) spaces that were organized by Lebanese.
     

    jack_1313

    Senior Member
    English - Australian
    In that case, what I get is:

    This change reflects the emergence of expressions of the social grievances that Lebanese men and women are living in unusual spaces [different from] those which they usually organized, such as unions and civil society organizations.

    Semantically, this still doesn't make a lot of sense to me. If ينظمها was supposed to be ينظمونها, then the sentence would only become meaningful to me if we added something substantial:

    ما يعكسه هذا التحول هو ظهور التعبيرات عن المظالم الاجتماعية التي يعيشها اللبنانيون واللبنانيات في مساحات غير مألوفة أيْ مختلفة عن تلك التي كانوا ينظمونها عادة لإبداء هذه التعبيرات، مثل النقابات ومنظمات المجتمع المدني
     
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    Sun-Shine

    Senior Member
    Arabic (Egypt)
    I feel that it was just written in a confusing way.

    It could be understood as :
    تلك (المساحات) التي كان (اللبنانيون) ينظمونها (المساحات المعتادة/المألوفة) عادة ?
    ـــــــــــ
    Those (well-known) spaces that were organized by Lebanese.
    Or:
    (تلك(التعبيرات)التي كان (اللبنانيون) ينظمونها(التعبيرات
    Those expressions that were organized by Lebanese.

    How do you understand the first part? :
    ما يعكسه هذا التحول هو ظهور التعبيرات عن المظالم الاجتماعية التي يعيشها اللبنانيون واللبنانيات في مساحات غير مألوفة
     

    jack_1313

    Senior Member
    English - Australian
    I understand the first part as I wrote in my post above:

    This change reflects the emergence of expressions of the social grievances that Lebanese men and women are living in unusual spaces

    For clarity, I've marked the relative clause with a different color. The phrase "in unusual spaces" is a continuation of the main clause.
     

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    American English
    I'm confused too. I tried to understand, but I think something is wrong or missing. Perhaps it should have been كانت تنظمها, where the verb is conjugated for مساحات and the connected object pronoun refers back to التعبيرات. In any case, I think the meaning of the sentence comes across clearly to me:

    ما يعكسه هذا التحول هو ظهور التعبيرات عن المظالم الاجتماعية التي يعيشها اللبنانيين واللبنانيات في مساحات غير مألوفة عن تلك التي كان ينظمها عادة وهي إما النقابات، أو منظمات المجتمع المدني الخ.


    This development suggests that Lebanese are finding new ways to voice their discontent and not necessarily relying on labor syndicates and civil society organizations, which have been among the traditional channels for such social grievances.
     

    jack_1313

    Senior Member
    English - Australian
    Hi Luke.

    That's the meaning I get too, but only by forgetting about the phrase entirely and filling the gap. The main issue is that I can't get that meaning from the verb نظم.
     

    lukebeadgcf

    Senior Member
    American English
    Yes, I see what you mean.

    This is somewhat speculative since it seems to me that it would require conjugating the verb كان ينظمها in the feminine, but does it help to think of the verb نظم here as conveying the meaning of "framing" or "framing" or "channelling?" In other words, with مساحات (spaces/venues) as the subject of the verb and تعبيرات or مظالم اجتماعية as the object, it would convey the sense that these spaces/venues have constituted the framework/channel/platform for the grievances in question.
     

    analeeh

    Senior Member
    English - UK
    نظّم often has the sense of 'arrange' or 'regulate', so I agree with Luke's suggestion. But the original sentence reads like it got mangled in an edit to me - I can't make it make grammatical sense either. If the reading Fenakhay and Sunshine are suggesting works nicely in Arabic, then we maybe need a different English word from 'organise' - maybe 'created'? 'The spaces they've created previously.'
     

    jack_1313

    Senior Member
    English - Australian
    I agree re. the strong possibility that this sentence got mangled in editing, and I'm still waiting for the author to explain it.

    Sunshine and Fenakhay's readings are sensible in the context of the individual sentence and the words it includes, but they don't fit very well in the overall context. This is the second paragraph of the article, and this first one talks about the appearance of social/political slogans among the crowds in sports games. So the other "reading" - i.e. Luke's and mine - makes a bit more sense in that regard.

    I'll post again if the author ever responds.
     
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    Mahaodeh

    Senior Member
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    Perhaps it should have been كانت تنظمها,
    This is what I felt when I read it for the first time. Finding it ينظمها I had to re-read it several times, and I still find it hard to understand what the writer means exactly.

    If we assume that the re-editing resulted in changing the verb from the feminine to the masculine, then the sentence makes sense to me.
     
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