حتـى يودّ اللاثـم أَنْ لا يقلع فمَه عنه

Discussion in 'العربية (Arabic)' started by dgwp, Feb 9, 2019.

  1. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    Another problematic sentence from the Travels of Ibn Jubayr and his description of the Black Stone in the Kaaba in Mecca (see "The Travels of Ibn Jubayr" - Wright and de Goeje, 1907, page 89) - full context given below. I'm struggling to understand the correct role of the last two verbs in the sentence (where the limited vowelling after حتـى is as given by Wright and de Goeje):

    وللحجر عند تقبيله لدونة ورطوبة يَتَنَعَّمُ بِـهَا ٱلْفَمُ حتـى يودّ اللاثـم أَنْ لا يقلع فمَه عنه

    I am not sure whether they refer to the person kissing the stone or his lips/mouth.


    Full context:

    وَٱلْـحَجَرُ ٱلْأَسْوَدُ ٱلْمُبَارَكُ مُلْصَقٌ فِـي ٱلرُّكْنِ ٱلنَّاظِرِ إِلَـى جِهَةِ ٱلْمَشْرِقِ وَلَا يُدْرَى قَدْرُ مَا دَخَلَ فِـي ٱلرُّكْنِ وَقِيلَ أَنَّهُ دَاخِلٌ فِـي ٱلْـجِدَارِ بِـمِقْدَارِ ذِرَاعَيْـنِ وَسَعَتُهُ ثُلْثَا شِبْـرٍ وَطُولُهُ شِبْـرٌ وَعَقْدٌ وَفِيهِ أَرْبَعُ قِطَعٍ مُلْصَقَةٍ وَيُقَالُ أَنَّ ٱلْقَرْمَطِيَّ لَعَنَهُ ٱللهُ كَانَ ٱلَّذِي كَسَرَهُ وَقَدْ شُدَّتْ جَوَانِبُهُ بِصَفِيحَةِ فِضَّةٍ يَلُوحُ بَصِيصُ بَيَاضِهَا عَلَى بَصِيصِ سَوَادِ ٱلْـحَجَرِ وَرَوْنَقِهِ ٱلصَّقِيلِ فَيُبْصِرُ ٱلرَّائِـي مِنْ ذَالِكَ مَنْظَرًا عَجِيبًا هُوَ قَيْدُ ٱلْأَبْصَارِ وللحجر عند تقبيله لدونة ورطوبة يَتَنَعَّمُ بِـهَا ٱلْفَمُ حتـى يودّ اللاثـم أَنْ لا يقلع فمَه عنه​
     
  2. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    يودّ : refer to the person kissing the stone.

    يقلع : if فمَه is accusative then the verb refer to the person kissing the stone
    but if it was فَمُه with ضمة on م then the verb will refer to the lips and يقلع would be مبني للمجهول and فَمُه is نائب فاعل
     
  3. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    I see - that makes sense. Assuming that we have فمَه in the accusative then, is it correct that the second verb must then be قَلَعَ rather than أَقْلَعَ ?
     
  4. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    In this context the verb يَقْلَع is in present tense and the past form is قَلَعَ.
    In case of the verb أَقْلَعَ , the present is يُقْلِع and this verb is لازم and it needs only فاعل

    That is what I think.
     
  5. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    As a native Arabic speaker, which verb is most likely here do you think?
     
  6. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    Do you have the vowels of the verb?
     
  7. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    No, unfortunately not.
     
  8. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    The word فمه in the book is not accusative
    there isn't vowel on it
    so the verb will be يُقْلِع فمُه from the verb أقلع
    and يُقْلِع will refer to the mouth (lips) not the person.
    فمُه then will be فاعل
     
  9. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    Sorry, but there is a vowel on it the book. See image below:

    Image1.jpg .
     
  10. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I'm confused now.
    In my opinion as it فمَه then it is يَقْلَع from the verb قلع but I'm not sure so, tomorrow (if I don't forget) I'll ask my teacher.

    [Edit:]
    Or could it be on the ف not م
    (فَمه) ?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2019 at 11:29 AM
  11. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    I don't think so - in the 1852 version of the book it is written فَمَه
     
  12. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    I'll try to ask about it to make sure.
     
  13. dgwp Senior Member

    English (UK)
    Here is my interpretation and translation of the latter part of it:

    يَتَنَعَّمُ بِـهَا ٱلْفَمُ حَتَّـى يَوَدَّ ٱللَّاثـمُ أَنْ لَا يَقْلَعَ فَمَهُ عَنْهُ ‘which the mouth enjoys until the person kissing it does not want to remove his mouth from it’
     
  14. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    This is like my opinion which I mentioned above.
    I didn't use the verb يَقْلَع before so this is may be the first time I see this verb
     
  15. Mahaodeh Senior Member

    London, UK
    Arabic, PA and IA.
    My first instinct is: يَقلع فمَه عنه, I don't see a reason for the passive; and يُقْلع (from the verb أقلع يقلع) doesn't seem to make sense.
     
  16. sun_shine 331995

    sun_shine 331995 Senior Member

    Arabic (mostly Egyptian)
    The same as mine.
    It could be يُقْلِع but I think in this case it should be فمُه.
     

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